Help with this rolled chord in Clair de Lune?

[Bernard]

I do 5-4-3-2-1, but it didn't work for me at first--it was uneven and unpredictable. The way I figured out what to do was as follows. I don't know if I can explain it in words, but I'll try.

1. I looked at the pattern of notes in the left hand, Eb-Gb-Ab-Db-Eb in the treble. The chord starts on Eb which is on the right side of a 2 black key block (Db and Eb), skips over 2 white keys to the next black key, Gb, then the next black key, Ab, then skips four half steps to the black key, Db, and finally the next black key, Eb.

2. Then I figure out how to mirror that pattern for my right hand. So mirroring Eb-Gb-Ab-Db-Eb going up, I play in descending notes--with my right hand--Db (half step from middle C), Bb, Ab, Eb, Db using 5-4-3-2-1. It's the same pattern the left hand has to play but reversed for the right hand (and on different notes obviously, it's the pattern that counts).

3. If I can play the mirror image of the pattern with my right hand, then it's just a process of figuring out what I'm doing on the right side of my body (hand, arm, shoulder, ...) that I'm not doing on my left. For me, I discovered a good deal of tension in the crook of my left elbow.

4. Then I start making up exercises for my left hand while it's crossed in front of my body, specifically in an effort to open up my left elbow. For instance, holding my pinky on the Eb, trying to play step wise with my thumb and fore finger several notes away. It turns out I also had stiffness on the inside of my upper arm. It's a slow process and sometimes intense, but it works for me.

Of course, we're all individual and none of this may help. I hope it does.

Otherwise, an alternate fingering.

[ShiroKuro]

@AndyD thanks! I'll try to see where I'm sitting, and if I can lean more to the right. That's very helpful!!

@bernard omg! doing the mirror thing is brilliant!! I'm also going to try to do the LH rolled chords an octave (or two!) lower and just see how it feels, because I haven't tried that at all yet.

These two things (mirroring and moving lower on the keyboard) might also help me decide whether to use the thumb on the top two notes.

My current teacher has very small hands, like, to my eye, dramatically small. I'm 5'4" and have probably a slightly larger than average reach for a woman. She is quite petite, maybe only 5' tall, and her hands are very small and her fingers look short to me. But of course, she can get her hands to do all kinds of things that I can't. So I think the thumb on two keys things is probably something she has to do. And it sounds fab when she does it.

But I'm not sure I "have" to do it this way.

So I will try all these ideas -- leaning to the right more, mirroring to see how I'm using my body when the roll is in the RH, and then also playing lower on the keyboard to see what fingering feels natural -- and then go from there.

To your (@bernard point about making up exercises -- I was trying to play just the top three, 3-2-1 and it's really getting over "c" that is the problem. (also I think my 3-2-1 spread is stiff)

[ShiroKuro]

BTW, I like my new teacher but she's no where near as dynamic and creative an instructor as my previous teacher was.

That's the way the system here works (uni music school), I don't have much choice, and my teacher last year is graduating in Dec (with a doctorate in piano performance) so she's not teaching this semester anyway.

It's fine, but it really underscores 1) how good my last teacher was, and 2) how inexperienced my current teacher is as a teacher.

All the ideas in this thread are things I don't think she would come up with, but I bet my previous teacher would. She had a trick or a solution to anything I threw at her.

/threaddrift

[kluurs]

I do the 54321 for the third chord. It's only an octave, but yes, I do find my self leaning to the right a bit to make it comfortable.

[jon-nyc]

I’m not near my piano (in Miami for a conference) but will chime in in a few days. I play that last chord real slow. I like how the C hits before the A, breaking the ‘trebleward’ roll a bit.

[ShiroKuro]

thanks @kluurs and @jon-nyc !

@jon-nyc said:

I like how the C hits before the A

me too!

[RealPlayer]

5-4-3-2-1, but I have big paws. And a thumb that bends outward more than usual (don’t know what that’s called).

[ShiroKuro]

I think I am going to leave out that Gb. If I do that, I can roll the chord in one motion.

It seems almost blasphemous to drop a note when this whole is all about tone colors, but it’s one nanosecond across the whole piece, and trying to get those five notes in was making my wrist hurt. Four notes seems much more doable.

We’ll see what my teacher thinks at tomorrow’s lesson.

[ShiroKuro]

P.S. just in case: I realized in the OP photo you can’t see the clef, but the LH is in treble clef here.

[Bernard]

@ShiroKuro If it were me I'd leave out the Db in the left hand as it will be far less noticeable and a Db appears in the right hand as well so it won't be entirely missing from the chord. The Gb seems pretty important to the harmonic movement and it's the only Gb in the chord so it's elimination would make a big difference.

[ShiroKuro]

@Bernard said:

If it were me I'd leave out the Db in the left hand as it will be far less noticeable and a Db appears in the right hand as well so it won't be entirely missing from the chord. The Gb seems pretty important to the harmonic movement and it's the only Gb in the chord so it's elimination would make a big difference.

Thanks so much for this suggestion!! I wasn't tracking that Db in the RH, but of course, there it is!

I played it w/o the Gb and thought it sounded fine, and it was sooo much easier to play, so I thought I'd go with that. But finger-wise, if I don't have to get 2 on that Db, doing 5-4-3 on Eb-Gb-Ab and then 1 on Eb ought to be relatively easy.

I will try this tonight when I practice.

Thank you!!!

[Bernard]

@ShiroKuro I barely notice it if the Db is dropped from the left hand. Think of it as changing the voicing (dropping the LH Db) versus changing the harmony (dropping the Gb).

[ShiroKuro]

@Bernard said:

I barely notice it if the Db is dropped from the left hand. Think of it as changing the voicing (dropping the LH Db) versus changing the harmony (dropping the Gb).

Yes, it makes total sense! I'm looking forward to trying it this evening. The big question is how it feels under my fingers. I will report back!

And thank you for this suggestion, now I won't look like an idiot in my lesson tomorrow for not having noticed this!