Watching the debate?

[ShiroKuro]

Absolutely not.

[ShiroKuro]

But I think some people might, and others might just not vote.

I think this spells disaster. And I agree with the various journalists I’m seeing this morning calling for Biden to withdraw for the good of the country.

[Mik]

We deserve better, between the constant stream of confusion and the constant stream of lies.

[wtg]

I thought the same, @Mik . 350 million people in the country and this is the best we can do?

The only positive spin I can put on this is that Biden was so bad that he will withdraw and the Dems can offer someone who will look brilliant compared to the two choices before the country right now.

[Rontuner]

From Heather Cox Richardson: https://www.facebook.com/B4TW24/posts/pfbid099VnyJXeguPVoSSCYTHBcEX3BuAWyoFBbM8846Z8fZx1aAqxRu44iL6AYmwEnGNKl

"At the end of the evening, pundits were calling not for Trump—a man liable for sexual assault and business fraud, convicted of 34 felonies, under three other indictments, who lied pathologically—to step down, but for Biden to step down…because he looked and sounded old"

Think about it...

[wtg]

True, but all of that was known about Trump going in to the debate; GOP voters are the ones who have selected him as the nominee. Nothing new there.

Biden's situation, while whispered about for quite a while, was painfully laid out in the open last night.

No, I won't vote for Trump no matter what. While we focus on the person running for the top job, it's really a group of people who around the president who are running the country. People in Trump's first administration managed to keep him in check. None of those guardrails will be there the second time around as he surrounds himself with yes-men. I have far more confidence in the people around Biden to keep the country safe if he is no longer capable of calling the shots.

But I doubt that is the way that people who are on the fence will look at things.

[ShiroKuro]

Ron — point taken. They should both step down, for very different reasons!

[Rontuner]

Vote for an old guy, or an old criminal who surrounds himself with criminals?

[CHAS]

@ShiroKuro
It is over.

[wtg]

@Rontuner said in Watching the debate?:

Vote for an old guy, or an old criminal who acts like a narcissistic five year old and who surrounds himself with criminals and/or people who have off-the-wall agendas?

I added a bit.

The problem with Biden is not that he's too old. It's that he can no longer do the job. If I had seen that debate performance from a sitting Republican president, I would think that invoking the 25th Amendment should be on the table.

I think that pretty much sums up the situation.

[wtg]

Tom Friedman in the NYT.

I watched the Biden-Trump debate alone in a Lisbon hotel room, and it made me weep. I cannot remember a more heartbreaking moment in American presidential campaign politics in my lifetime, precisely because of what it revealed: Joe Biden, a good man and a good president, has no business running for re-election. And Donald Trump, a malicious man and a petty president, has learned nothing and forgotten nothing. He is the same fire hose of lies he always was, obsessed with his grievances — nowhere close to what it will take for America to lead in the 21st century.

The Biden family and political team must gather quickly and have the hardest of conversations with the president, a conversation of love and clarity and resolve. To give America the greatest shot possible of deterring the Trump threat in November, the president has to come forward and declare that he will not be running for re-election and is releasing all of his delegates for the Democratic National Convention.

The Republican Party, if its leaders had an ounce of integrity, would demand the same, but it won’t, because they don’t.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/joe-biden-tom-friedman.html

Can anyone do a gift link? I can read it using Reader Mode, but would be easier for other non-subscribers to get access.

[ShiroKuro]

gift link
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/joe-biden-tom-friedman.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3E0.tR6a.INFqSrKYbvKh&smid=url-share

[ShiroKuro]

@Rontuner said in Watching the debate?:

Vote for an old guy, or an old criminal who surrounds himself with criminals?

I mean, I agree with you. But this doesn't represent the total set of choices, which is:

1. Vote for an old
2. Vote for an old criminal
3. Don't vote, or write in some random person

This race will be decided as much by people choosing #3 as by those who choose the other options.

The students who protested on campuses in May and June are most likely going to choose #3. People on the fence about Biden who can't stand Trump will choose #3...

This is where I am coming from. I don't think we can win those folks over with the "Biden is better than Trump" argument.

Also, I am not worried about what would happen for the next four years if Biden gets elected. I am terrified of the thought that Biden could have a health event or something just before the election. Say in mid-October. And then what will happen?

He needs to withdraw, and he needs to do it now.

[CHAS]

Krugman wants Biden to drop out.
https://www.alternet.org/paul-krugman-biden-trump/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Jun.28.2024_9.06pm

[ShiroKuro]

Yep, him and a lot of others!

[wtg]

The Dems are doing today what the Republicans had the courage to do during Watergate, namely to tell their party's president that it's time to call it quits. Not resign in this case, but to withdraw as the nominee.

If only the GOP had the courage in 2020 to do what they did back then. The country would be in a much better place.

[Rontuner]

I disagree. Biden hasn't done anything close to Watergate. Yikes.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4745539-fetterman-defends-biden-debate-performance/

"Sen. John Fetterman (D-Pa.), who survived his own disastrous debate performance ahead of the 2022 election, told fellow Democrats to “chill the f‑‑‑ out” after media outlets reported Democrats are panicking over President Biden’s weak showing at Thursday’s debate against former President Trump."

[wtg]

Goodness no, I'm not saying he did anything like Watergate; I went back and read what I posted and am surprised that interpretation came up. Biden hasn't "done" anything; he is simply suffering from the inexorable march of cognitive decline. And that means he no longer has the skills to run the country.

In my previous post, I was merely referring to a point in history, one when a political party, the GOP at that time, had the courage to deliver bad news. I think that's what Dems are doing now. I guess I can see that for some folks it might be viewed as a betrayal of a good man who has devoted his life to public service. I can understand that, but in this case I strongly feel someone needs to deliver a difficult message to him.

I was also pointing out that today's GOP did not exhibit that same courage in standing up to Trump after he left office. They made some noises right after January 6th but it didn't take more than a few weeks for some of them to go crawling back to him. With very few exceptions, the rest followed suit over time.

I saw that article about Fetterman. His perspective is strongly colored by his personal experience of recovery, but his situation and Biden's are apples and oranges. He had a specific medical event and he was in his early 50s when he had his stroke. The possibility of a recovery was definitely there.

Biden is showing progressive cognitive decline that has a completely different origin. There's no way it will be reversed. Over the course of three years I spent hours nearly every day among people with cognitive problems and watched dozens of them as their problems got worse. Not a single one got better.

Will he have days when he is better than others? Absolutely. But his decline over four years is evident . Here he is in the first debate against Trump in 2020:

Link to video

@Rontuner -I'd like to ask -- what would your reaction have been if it was the GOP candidate who spoke as Biden did during last night's debate?

[ShiroKuro]

Yikes, comparing that 2020 one with yesterday’s is heartbreaking.

@Rontuner you already know that I agree with @wtg, Biden is in decline and that presents a serious danger for our country, and in fact the entire world. Leadership in the Democratic Party needs to show courage here, to work on convincing Joe to withdraw, before it’s too late.

If he doesn’t withdraw soon, then you’re right, Ron, we will all need to get behind him. But in that case, I will be holding my breath until Nov. 5th, because I think he is in very precarious condition.

[Steve Miller]

@CHAS

These talking heads are making me crazy.

Who does he suggest as an alternative?