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  4. Watching the debate?

Watching the debate?

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  • ShiroKuroS Offline
    ShiroKuroS Offline
    ShiroKuro
    wrote on last edited by
    #16

    But I think some people might, and others might just not vote.

    I think this spells disaster. And I agree with the various journalists I’m seeing this morning calling for Biden to withdraw for the good of the country.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Offline
      MikM Offline
      Mik
      wrote on last edited by
      #17

      We deserve better, between the constant stream of confusion and the constant stream of lies.

      “I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
      ― Douglas Adams

      1 Reply Last reply
      • wtgW Offline
        wtgW Offline
        wtg
        wrote on last edited by
        #18

        I thought the same, @Mik . 350 million people in the country and this is the best we can do?

        The only positive spin I can put on this is that Biden was so bad that he will withdraw and the Dems can offer someone who will look brilliant compared to the two choices before the country right now.

        When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier

        1 Reply Last reply
        • RontunerR Offline
          RontunerR Offline
          Rontuner
          wrote on last edited by
          #19

          From Heather Cox Richardson: https://www.facebook.com/B4TW24/posts/pfbid099VnyJXeguPVoSSCYTHBcEX3BuAWyoFBbM8846Z8fZx1aAqxRu44iL6AYmwEnGNKl

          "At the end of the evening, pundits were calling not for Trump—a man liable for sexual assault and business fraud, convicted of 34 felonies, under three other indictments, who lied pathologically—to step down, but for Biden to step down…because he looked and sounded old"

          Think about it...

          1 Reply Last reply
          • wtgW Offline
            wtgW Offline
            wtg
            wrote on last edited by
            #20

            True, but all of that was known about Trump going in to the debate; GOP voters are the ones who have selected him as the nominee. Nothing new there.

            Biden's situation, while whispered about for quite a while, was painfully laid out in the open last night.

            No, I won't vote for Trump no matter what. While we focus on the person running for the top job, it's really a group of people who around the president who are running the country. People in Trump's first administration managed to keep him in check. None of those guardrails will be there the second time around as he surrounds himself with yes-men. I have far more confidence in the people around Biden to keep the country safe if he is no longer capable of calling the shots.

            But I doubt that is the way that people who are on the fence will look at things.

            When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier

            1 Reply Last reply
            • ShiroKuroS Offline
              ShiroKuroS Offline
              ShiroKuro
              wrote on last edited by
              #21

              Ron — point taken. They should both step down, for very different reasons!

              1 Reply Last reply
              • RontunerR Offline
                RontunerR Offline
                Rontuner
                wrote on last edited by
                #22

                Vote for an old guy, or an old criminal who surrounds himself with criminals?

                wtgW ShiroKuroS 2 Replies Last reply
                • ShiroKuroS ShiroKuro

                  So it’s not over yet? I’m afraid to even read about how it’s going…

                  C Offline
                  C Offline
                  CHAS
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #23

                  @ShiroKuro
                  It is over.

                  “I’m at an age when remembering something right away is as good as an orgasm.”—Gloria Steinem to Julia Louis-Dreyfus on Wiser Than Me

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • RontunerR Rontuner

                    Vote for an old guy, or an old criminal who surrounds himself with criminals?

                    wtgW Offline
                    wtgW Offline
                    wtg
                    wrote on last edited by wtg
                    #24

                    @Rontuner said in Watching the debate?:

                    Vote for an old guy, or an old criminal who acts like a narcissistic five year old and who surrounds himself with criminals and/or people who have off-the-wall agendas?

                    I added a bit.

                    The problem with Biden is not that he's too old. It's that he can no longer do the job. If I had seen that debate performance from a sitting Republican president, I would think that invoking the 25th Amendment should be on the table.

                    I think that pretty much sums up the situation.

                    When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • wtgW Offline
                      wtgW Offline
                      wtg
                      wrote on last edited by wtg
                      #25

                      Tom Friedman in the NYT.

                      I watched the Biden-Trump debate alone in a Lisbon hotel room, and it made me weep. I cannot remember a more heartbreaking moment in American presidential campaign politics in my lifetime, precisely because of what it revealed: Joe Biden, a good man and a good president, has no business running for re-election. And Donald Trump, a malicious man and a petty president, has learned nothing and forgotten nothing. He is the same fire hose of lies he always was, obsessed with his grievances — nowhere close to what it will take for America to lead in the 21st century.

                      The Biden family and political team must gather quickly and have the hardest of conversations with the president, a conversation of love and clarity and resolve. To give America the greatest shot possible of deterring the Trump threat in November, the president has to come forward and declare that he will not be running for re-election and is releasing all of his delegates for the Democratic National Convention.

                      The Republican Party, if its leaders had an ounce of integrity, would demand the same, but it won’t, because they don’t.

                      https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/joe-biden-tom-friedman.html

                      Can anyone do a gift link? I can read it using Reader Mode, but would be easier for other non-subscribers to get access.

                      When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • ShiroKuroS Offline
                        ShiroKuroS Offline
                        ShiroKuro
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #26

                        gift link
                        https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/joe-biden-tom-friedman.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3E0.tR6a.INFqSrKYbvKh&smid=url-share

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • RontunerR Rontuner

                          Vote for an old guy, or an old criminal who surrounds himself with criminals?

                          ShiroKuroS Offline
                          ShiroKuroS Offline
                          ShiroKuro
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #27

                          @Rontuner said in Watching the debate?:

                          Vote for an old guy, or an old criminal who surrounds himself with criminals?

                          I mean, I agree with you. But this doesn't represent the total set of choices, which is:

                          1. Vote for an old
                          2. Vote for an old criminal
                          3. Don't vote, or write in some random person

                          This race will be decided as much by people choosing #3 as by those who choose the other options.

                          The students who protested on campuses in May and June are most likely going to choose #3. People on the fence about Biden who can't stand Trump will choose #3...

                          This is where I am coming from. I don't think we can win those folks over with the "Biden is better than Trump" argument.

                          Also, I am not worried about what would happen for the next four years if Biden gets elected. I am terrified of the thought that Biden could have a health event or something just before the election. Say in mid-October. And then what will happen?

                          He needs to withdraw, and he needs to do it now.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • C Offline
                            C Offline
                            CHAS
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #28

                            Krugman wants Biden to drop out.
                            https://www.alternet.org/paul-krugman-biden-trump/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Jun.28.2024_9.06pm

                            “I’m at an age when remembering something right away is as good as an orgasm.”—Gloria Steinem to Julia Louis-Dreyfus on Wiser Than Me

                            S 1 Reply Last reply
                            • ShiroKuroS Offline
                              ShiroKuroS Offline
                              ShiroKuro
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #29

                              Yep, him and a lot of others!

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • wtgW Offline
                                wtgW Offline
                                wtg
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #30

                                The Dems are doing today what the Republicans had the courage to do during Watergate, namely to tell their party's president that it's time to call it quits. Not resign in this case, but to withdraw as the nominee.

                                If only the GOP had the courage in 2020 to do what they did back then. The country would be in a much better place.

                                When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • RontunerR Offline
                                  RontunerR Offline
                                  Rontuner
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #31

                                  I disagree. Biden hasn't done anything close to Watergate. Yikes.

                                  https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4745539-fetterman-defends-biden-debate-performance/

                                  "Sen. John Fetterman (D-Pa.), who survived his own disastrous debate performance ahead of the 2022 election, told fellow Democrats to “chill the f‑‑‑ out” after media outlets reported Democrats are panicking over President Biden’s weak showing at Thursday’s debate against former President Trump."

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • wtgW Offline
                                    wtgW Offline
                                    wtg
                                    wrote on last edited by wtg
                                    #32

                                    Goodness no, I'm not saying he did anything like Watergate; I went back and read what I posted and am surprised that interpretation came up. Biden hasn't "done" anything; he is simply suffering from the inexorable march of cognitive decline. And that means he no longer has the skills to run the country.

                                    In my previous post, I was merely referring to a point in history, one when a political party, the GOP at that time, had the courage to deliver bad news. I think that's what Dems are doing now. I guess I can see that for some folks it might be viewed as a betrayal of a good man who has devoted his life to public service. I can understand that, but in this case I strongly feel someone needs to deliver a difficult message to him.

                                    I was also pointing out that today's GOP did not exhibit that same courage in standing up to Trump after he left office. They made some noises right after January 6th but it didn't take more than a few weeks for some of them to go crawling back to him. With very few exceptions, the rest followed suit over time.

                                    I saw that article about Fetterman. His perspective is strongly colored by his personal experience of recovery, but his situation and Biden's are apples and oranges. He had a specific medical event and he was in his early 50s when he had his stroke. The possibility of a recovery was definitely there.

                                    Biden is showing progressive cognitive decline that has a completely different origin. There's no way it will be reversed. Over the course of three years I spent hours nearly every day among people with cognitive problems and watched dozens of them as their problems got worse. Not a single one got better.

                                    Will he have days when he is better than others? Absolutely. But his decline over four years is evident . Here he is in the first debate against Trump in 2020:

                                    Link to video

                                    @Rontuner -I'd like to ask -- what would your reaction have been if it was the GOP candidate who spoke as Biden did during last night's debate?

                                    When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • ShiroKuroS Offline
                                      ShiroKuroS Offline
                                      ShiroKuro
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #33

                                      Yikes, comparing that 2020 one with yesterday’s is heartbreaking.

                                      @Rontuner you already know that I agree with @wtg, Biden is in decline and that presents a serious danger for our country, and in fact the entire world. Leadership in the Democratic Party needs to show courage here, to work on convincing Joe to withdraw, before it’s too late.

                                      If he doesn’t withdraw soon, then you’re right, Ron, we will all need to get behind him. But in that case, I will be holding my breath until Nov. 5th, because I think he is in very precarious condition.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • C CHAS

                                        Krugman wants Biden to drop out.
                                        https://www.alternet.org/paul-krugman-biden-trump/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Jun.28.2024_9.06pm

                                        S Offline
                                        S Offline
                                        Steve Miller
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #34

                                        @CHAS

                                        These talking heads are making me crazy.

                                        Who does he suggest as an alternative?

                                        C C 2 Replies Last reply
                                        • S Steve Miller

                                          @CHAS

                                          These talking heads are making me crazy.

                                          Who does he suggest as an alternative?

                                          C Offline
                                          C Offline
                                          Cindysphinx
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #35

                                          @Steve-Miller

                                          Gretchen Whitmer.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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