Payam Method for piano lessons
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Because it sounds like 60 Minutes and the Payam backers made a coordinated effort to do this big marketing push, the segment is disguised to look like one of their regular segments (which should be based on investigative journalism) but is actually just a big fat infomercial, all the while dissing the piano teaching profession in unfair ways and further contributing to the current view of learning and teaching as transactional, commercial endeavors.
I think that’s all pretty gross.
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I just registered for a 'fee' online lesson. Turns out there's a $75 deposit. If you continue the deposit is applied to your lessons. So what if I don't continue?
Sounds scammy.
“I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
― Douglas Adams -
disclaimer: I have no allegiance to the Payam Method; I just posted the 60 Minutes piece because it was about pianos!
It seems that we're morphing into fact checking...
I started to fact check Meghan's debunking about there being no real statistics about how many people quit after a year of starting lessons; she was questioning the 80 percent figure quoted by Payam. Apparently that's one of those statistics that is often repeated, but may not be really accurate. Such as the notion about having to drink 8 glasses of water a day.
Anyway, here is some info for anyone who is interested.
Another piano lesson site and their claim:
Why Kids Quit Piano Lessons: What Research Shows
Research from the University of Ottawa’s Piano Pedagogy Department revealed something surprising: nearly 80% of piano students quit within the first three years of lessons.They don't cite their source specifically, but I found this thesis from someone at the University of Ottawa that seems like it might be where they got their info:
Sometimes you have to fact check the fact checkers....
@wtg Although I suspect the drop out rate is high, the study you linked states,
While these fabled statistics appear frequently in informal pedagogical
discussions, there is very little data to support these opinions. Even among researchers, statistics regarding dropouts are often simply based on impressions ... [pages 3-4]Reading further on page 4, it's not surprising that a lot of dropping out occurs just before, or early into puberty.
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I just registered for a 'fee' online lesson. Turns out there's a $75 deposit. If you continue the deposit is applied to your lessons. So what if I don't continue?
Sounds scammy.
Sounds scammy.
It's the brave new world.
I ran into the same kind of thing with a couple of products, where even after an initial purchase there's the requirement to buy something else. It's the whole subscription model thing, with appropriate social media hype, and an endless series of emails (or texts) asking you how much you love product X and please share your experiences on their Facebook/X/etc page.
It's exhausting. Who has time to talk about their tooth brush on a regular basis?
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In a way, it's a little peculiar that we focus so much on the drop out rate. We don't do that with the visual arts. It doesn't seem like we hear about concerns about the number of young people who stop making art. (Maybe it's just me.) Or sports. Or any other endeavor that requires strong effort.
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In a way, it's a little peculiar that we focus so much on the drop out rate. We don't do that with the visual arts. It doesn't seem like we hear about concerns about the number of young people who stop making art. (Maybe it's just me.) Or sports. Or any other endeavor that requires strong effort.
In a way, it's a little peculiar that we focus so much on the drop out rate.
This is Payam's "hook". Find a "problem" and claim to solve it.
Problem: People drop lessons
Payam's solution: We make it fun so they don't drop out!One thing I will say is that I think there's a whole bunch of us who are part of the great unwashed masses who don't necessarily have the time, skills, or inclination to devote to the fine points of learning to play piano.
Using myself as an example of the great unwashed...I don't have the ear that real musicians have, either literally (out of tune instruments don't bother me because I just don't hear that they are out of tune) and subtleties in expression and execution in performances escape me (because I also am not wired to make those discernments). Put me in a garden, OTOH, and I can spot and identify all kinds of plants by their branches/leaves/etc. A lot of people think they all look the same and can't tell them apart.
Another example...wine drinkers. There are those that can appreciate all kinds of nuances in various wines. I can't, or more accurately, never could (I don't drink alcohol anymore). People would wax rhapsodic about various flavors and aromas, and I would stare blankly. I either liked it, or I didn't. Before you say it....I know, I know, I'm a philistine....
Anyway, I wonder if people who are immersed in music, have a brain wired for it, and who devote a lot of time and energy to it, see this as the equivalent of cheap wine in the world of piano lessons, and somehow not up to their standards. We need to remember that for some people, cheap wine is totally OK and even enjoyable!
Maybe Payam will get folks into playing, enjoying, and spreading piano music widely. I think that's a good thing.
Just a thought.
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Because it sounds like 60 Minutes and the Payam backers made a coordinated effort
Where did you get that info? (I didn't have your video link to watch, so sorry if it was in there.)
@ShiroKuro said: Because it sounds like 60 Minutes and the Payam backers made a coordinated effortWhere did you get that info? (I didn't have your video link to watch, so sorry if it was in there.)
@wtg it's in the video you linked above (after I mistakenly left the link out of my original post). Anyway, just in case, here is the video link again:
Link to video -
disclaimer: I have no allegiance to the Payam Method; I just posted the 60 Minutes piece because it was about pianos!
It seems that we're morphing into fact checking...
I started to fact check Meghan's debunking about there being no real statistics about how many people quit after a year of starting lessons; she was questioning the 80 percent figure quoted by Payam. Apparently that's one of those statistics that is often repeated, but may not be really accurate. Such as the notion about having to drink 8 glasses of water a day.
Anyway, here is some info for anyone who is interested.
Another piano lesson site and their claim:
Why Kids Quit Piano Lessons: What Research Shows
Research from the University of Ottawa’s Piano Pedagogy Department revealed something surprising: nearly 80% of piano students quit within the first three years of lessons.They don't cite their source specifically, but I found this thesis from someone at the University of Ottawa that seems like it might be where they got their info:
Sometimes you have to fact check the fact checkers....
disclaimer: I have no allegiance to the Payam Method; I just posted the 60 Minutes piece because it was about pianos!
And I appreciate that you did! I think it's very interesting how much attention this whole thing has gotten. Yes, I'm contributing to that
but I mean more specifically the rebuttal videos and all the chatter online, esp. on the different FB piano groups I follow, everyone is up in arms!It seems that we're morphing into fact checking...
I'll let someone else do that. I don't have any reason to doubt the South Shore Piano School guy, after watching his whole video, he seems sincere and between what he presents and what I saw in the CBS video itself, I'm comfortable criticizing the reporting (or lack thereof) in the 60 Minutes segment.
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On the topic of why people quit piano... well and re the Payam "make it fun approach" ... I think it's relatively easy to make piano fun in the first 6 months to a year. As piano gets harder, this approach becomes increasingly less effective at encouraging or motivating people to continue.
What I thought was missing in the Payam video was that middle part. He talked about beginnings, and they showed more intermediate students. But not those struggling in the in-between stages.
@Bernard , re the focus on the drop out rate, could part of that be because there are so many adults who wish they could play the piano, and either regret stopping or regret that they never started?
@wtg re this:
I wonder if people who are immersed in music, have a brain wired for it, and who devote a lot of time and energy to it, see this as the equivalent of cheap wine in the world of piano lessons, and somehow not up to their standards. We need to remember that for some people, cheap wine is totally OK and even enjoyable!
Maybe Payam will get folks into playing, enjoying, and spreading piano music widely. I think that's a good thing.
I am well aware that many people would probably say that the kind of music I play is the equivalent of cheap wine...
I decided long ago that I wanted to play the piano, and I would figure out a way to do that even through grad school and career changes etc. The way that I did that, and the way that I have been successful at just continuing to play, is to play easy music. So I am huge proponent of accessible music, of getting people playing and enjoying music.
But my original reason for the negative reaction to Payam was that I just don't think we benefit by giving people the expectation that learning won't have difficult parts or "unfun" parts to it. I won't rehash what I posted above (probably a week ago now), but I don't think criticizing the Payam method necessarily means we want to reserve piano only for those who are "serious" about it (i.e., only for the "connoisseurs").
Anyway, as I said above, I'm happy about anything that creates buzz about piano, so in that regard, this isn't totally bad.
If nothing else, it underscores how many people wish they could play the piano.
Maybe this will trigger a big push for people (kids and adults!) to take up piano. Wouldn't that be something!
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On the topic of why people quit piano... well and re the Payam "make it fun approach" ... I think it's relatively easy to make piano fun in the first 6 months to a year. As piano gets harder, this approach becomes increasingly less effective at encouraging or motivating people to continue.
What I thought was missing in the Payam video was that middle part. He talked about beginnings, and they showed more intermediate students. But not those struggling in the in-between stages.
@Bernard , re the focus on the drop out rate, could part of that be because there are so many adults who wish they could play the piano, and either regret stopping or regret that they never started?
@wtg re this:
I wonder if people who are immersed in music, have a brain wired for it, and who devote a lot of time and energy to it, see this as the equivalent of cheap wine in the world of piano lessons, and somehow not up to their standards. We need to remember that for some people, cheap wine is totally OK and even enjoyable!
Maybe Payam will get folks into playing, enjoying, and spreading piano music widely. I think that's a good thing.
I am well aware that many people would probably say that the kind of music I play is the equivalent of cheap wine...
I decided long ago that I wanted to play the piano, and I would figure out a way to do that even through grad school and career changes etc. The way that I did that, and the way that I have been successful at just continuing to play, is to play easy music. So I am huge proponent of accessible music, of getting people playing and enjoying music.
But my original reason for the negative reaction to Payam was that I just don't think we benefit by giving people the expectation that learning won't have difficult parts or "unfun" parts to it. I won't rehash what I posted above (probably a week ago now), but I don't think criticizing the Payam method necessarily means we want to reserve piano only for those who are "serious" about it (i.e., only for the "connoisseurs").
Anyway, as I said above, I'm happy about anything that creates buzz about piano, so in that regard, this isn't totally bad.
If nothing else, it underscores how many people wish they could play the piano.
Maybe this will trigger a big push for people (kids and adults!) to take up piano. Wouldn't that be something!
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