Germany is "wrong" to finance Ukraine

wtg

wtg said:

@Daniel said:

There was a treaty signed by the US with Gorbachev

Could you post a link to that actual document? I have searched and am unable to find it.

Thanks.

I did a quick query to AI.

Did the US ever sign a treaty with Russia that specifically stated that NATO would not expand eastward? Or were there merely discussions with/assurances to Gorbachev from Western Europe and the US about limiting NATO expansion?

Here is the answer;

No. The United States did not sign a treaty with Russia—or the Soviet Union—prohibiting NATO from expanding eastward.

The treaty people often mean is the 1990 Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, signed by the United States, the Soviet Union, Britain, France, and the two German states. It set limits on military deployments in the former East Germany; it did not bar NATO from admitting countries elsewhere in Eastern Europe. The Soviet Union, not the Russian Federation, was the signatory on the Soviet side. <citation src="6,7"></citation>

There were, however, conversations and verbal assurances during German reunification negotiations. James Baker’s “not one inch eastward” phrase and similar remarks by other Western officials are documented. Their meaning and scope remain disputed: some argue they encouraged Gorbachev to expect NATO would not expand more broadly; others argue they concerned NATO’s military role in a reunified Germany, and were never a binding promise about future membership. <citation src="2,4,8"></citation>

So the most precise summary is: no treaty barring broader eastward expansion; yes, there were diplomatic discussions and assurances, but no written, legally binding commitment covering Eastern Europe as a whole. <citation src="4,6,8"></citation>

Daniel

@wtg said:

@Daniel said:

There was a treaty signed by the US with Gorbachev

Could you post a link to that actual document? I have searched and am unable to find it.

Thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate-Range_Nuclear_Forces_Treaty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/START_I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/START_II

I could be wrong, of course.

I'm certainly willing to consider the possibility.

As to the treaty documents- no.

I don't know where they are kept.

I'll reconsider.

But, yeah, I'm not reading the treaty documents.

That would take months, and I'm not an attorney.

Daniel

@wtg said:

wtg said:

@Daniel said:

There was a treaty signed by the US with Gorbachev

Could you post a link to that actual document? I have searched and am unable to find it.

Thanks.

I did a quick query to AI.

Did the US ever sign a treaty with Russia that specifically stated that NATO would not expand eastward? Or were there merely discussions with/assurances to Gorbachev from Western Europe and the US about limiting NATO expansion?

Here is the answer;

No. The United States did not sign a treaty with Russia—or the Soviet Union—prohibiting NATO from expanding eastward.

The treaty people often mean is the 1990 Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, signed by the United States, the Soviet Union, Britain, France, and the two German states. It set limits on military deployments in the former East Germany; it did not bar NATO from admitting countries elsewhere in Eastern Europe. The Soviet Union, not the Russian Federation, was the signatory on the Soviet side. <citation src="6,7"></citation>

There were, however, conversations and verbal assurances during German reunification negotiations. James Baker’s “not one inch eastward” phrase and similar remarks by other Western officials are documented. Their meaning and scope remain disputed: some argue they encouraged Gorbachev to expect NATO would not expand more broadly; others argue they concerned NATO’s military role in a reunified Germany, and were never a binding promise about future membership. <citation src="2,4,8"></citation>

So the most precise summary is: no treaty barring broader eastward expansion; yes, there were diplomatic discussions and assurances, but no written, legally binding commitment covering Eastern Europe as a whole. <citation src="4,6,8"></citation>

I'm not convinced.

wtg

These are the sources that AI used in composing its answer; the links didn't copy when I pasted its response earlier. At least you'll know, if you have the time and desire to do so, upon what it based its response.

From the Brookings Institute, this bit is especially interesting:

Former Soviet President Gorbachev’s View

We now have a very authoritative voice from Moscow confirming this understanding. Russia behind the Headlines has published an interview with Gorbachev, who was Soviet president during the discussions and treaty negotiations concerning German reunification. The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”

Gorbachev continued that “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. It has been obeyed all these years.” To be sure, the former Soviet president criticized NATO enlargement and called it a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990, but he made clear there was no promise regarding broader enlargement.

The entire Brookings link is here:

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

Not sure the Wiki link you posted is the treaty we are looking for. This is the one that AI references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany

This last one discusses (now-declassified) communications that happened at the time.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

Daniel

@wtg I'm not trying to be argumentative. I said I'd reconsider. Fair enough?

wtg

For me, everything to this point hasn't been an argument at all, simply an exchange of information and opinions.

You did say that you were unconvinced by the AI answer after you said you'd reconsider, so I provided additional background on what its answer was based on. As I said, you're welcome to investigate those links if you have the time and inclination. If you don't, no prob.

Later, gator.