Has somebody already posted this? Maybe a pianist's touch affects the sound, after all?
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I have some questions about the methodology here. Also, I don't know how this could possibly work, based on what I know about how a piano works. Nevertheless, I do hear differences in people's playing that seem to be a result of their "touch," however that's defined.
New mapping reveals that a musician can cange the color of a piano's sound through pure technique: https://www.ecoportal.net/en/scientists-prove-pianist-touch-effect/22234/
I don't know how this could possible work, based on what I know about how a piano works.
Or maybe the way to think about is exactly the opposite? A piano works mechanically, by objects moving through space and time and connecting with other objects.
Why wouldn't the sound change if there were changes in how that movement or connection occurred?
Ok, I'll stop spamming your thread!
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The research paper: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2425073122
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Ok I lied (I'm still spamming)... So I can't remember where, but I am certain I have seen this author's name before (Shinichi Furuya), he is connected to Sony and something called the NeuroPiano Institute. (Maybe he was discussed in the BulletProof Musician's blog?)
Ok, looking at his Google Scholar page, I'm guessing that the BulletProof Musician is where I've seen his name.
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=IphDyJcAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=sraSuch a cool research agenda, thanks for posting this @mary-anna
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You're not spamming, sk.
I'm curious about this, too.The reason I don't get how it works is that my understanding of the physics of a piano is that the motion of the hammer is out of the pianist's control at the time it hits the string. We can control the speed with which it hits the strings, making the sound louder or softer--hence the name "pianoforte"--but nothing else.
I've read that some think that the quality that we perceive as a more musical tone or varying "touch" is a function of how a pianist plays in a legato or staccato style. In other words, it comes from whether there is a separation between the notes or not or whether there is some overlap between the notes in terms of time. But this is not what the experiment tested.
However, since the experimenters were interested in human perception and not physics, their work didn't address the physical means of sound production. (I haven't read the more detailed material that you and Ax posted, but the summary that I posted suggested that it wasn't addressed.)
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You're not spamming, sk.
I'm curious about this, too.The reason I don't get how it works is that my understanding of the physics of a piano is that the motion of the hammer is out of the pianist's control at the time it hits the string. We can control the speed with which it hits the strings, making the sound louder or softer--hence the name "pianoforte"--but nothing else.
I've read that some think that the quality that we perceive as a more musical tone or varying "touch" is a function of how a pianist plays in a legato or staccato style. In other words, it comes from whether there is a separation between the notes or not or whether there is some overlap between the notes in terms of time. But this is not what the experiment tested.
However, since the experimenters were interested in human perception and not physics, their work didn't address the physical means of sound production. (I haven't read the more detailed material that you and Ax posted, but the summary that I posted suggested that it wasn't addressed.)
I still haven't read the full article... but when did that ever stop someone from commenting?
The reason I don't get how it works is that my understanding of the physics of a piano is that the motion of the hammer is out of the pianist's control at the time it hits the string. We can control the speed with which it hits the strings
Well, given all the parts along the line of action from the finger to the string, isn't it possible that different kinds of touch (e.g., my comment above about flat fingers vs finger tips) would create different kinds of movement (vibrations??) in different parts of the action such that when the hammer connected with the string, there would be more factors at play (har) besides just velocity?
I don't have enough control to "certify" that my flat-fingered play and finger-tip were the same velocity, so maybe differences in velocity is actually what caused the sound difference.... But still, I feel like it makes sense, mechanically. You use your body differently, it causes the hammer to "be" different when it strikes the string.
I don't know. I'm out of my depth here if the focus is physics. But it's quite interesting to consider!
What are you playing these days?
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@mary-anna As you know, I don't play and am not really equipped to discuss such arcane details, but I'm going to bet based on intuition that the answer is definitely yes. I reckon this is true for the same reason that as a bass line (no pun intended) the absence of touch is silence. My 2 cents.
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You're not spamming, sk.
I'm curious about this, too.The reason I don't get how it works is that my understanding of the physics of a piano is that the motion of the hammer is out of the pianist's control at the time it hits the string. We can control the speed with which it hits the strings, making the sound louder or softer--hence the name "pianoforte"--but nothing else.
I've read that some think that the quality that we perceive as a more musical tone or varying "touch" is a function of how a pianist plays in a legato or staccato style. In other words, it comes from whether there is a separation between the notes or not or whether there is some overlap between the notes in terms of time. But this is not what the experiment tested.
However, since the experimenters were interested in human perception and not physics, their work didn't address the physical means of sound production. (I haven't read the more detailed material that you and Ax posted, but the summary that I posted suggested that it wasn't addressed.)
I've read that some think that the quality that we perceive as a more musical tone or varying "touch" is a function of how a pianist plays in a legato or staccato style.
I haven't read any of the articles posted here except the OPs. But I have always thought something similar to what Mary-Anna said. Unscientific, but the way the end of one note blends with the beginning of the next note (and with notes that are played simultaneous or have been held before) is what I would imagine is responsible for different tone qualities. There is quite a range of possibilities for tone blending when going from one note to another. That overlap of decay and newly articulated note is where I'd focus.
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That has always been the way I imagined it worked, Bernard. However, as I understand the experiment, the listeners were evaluating the tones of single notes, so our legato/blending theory doesn't apply.
Those with more knowledge of a piano's inner workings (Ron?) can probably speak on this, but SK's thought that the pianist might be imparting some kind of vibration to the hammer before it leaves their control makes sense to me.
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Skimming through, the main difference measured seems to be the acceleration of the hammer just before escapement - that moment when the key disengages from the hammer and it is free to continue on to the string without any connection to the finger. We are talking about the last little bit of motion - around 1/16", though often wider on many pianos.
So not just speed, but how much that speed is changing right before it releases to the string.
Interesting stuff! (I think this showed up on one of the tech forums when first published)
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