A piano question re: repinning cost
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Without going into the whole backstory, the piano (a 1970s vintage 9ft Steinway) at my place of employment needs some work. Namely the tuning pins are loose and the piano tech (who happens to also be my personal piano tech) has suggested we replace them with larger pins and have the piano restrung. He does not do this kind of work but has suggested someone reputable that we should call. He also tossed out a dollar figure that I thought was shockingly low (~$1800) as what he estimated this work would cost. He did say he wasn't really sure though, since again, he doesn't do that work.
Fast forward a bit and we have contacted the guy he recommended and the actual quote is closer to $5K. Since the budget was already designed around this $1800 figure and that is the number that everyone got into their heads, my bosses are kind of choking a bit about the cost. They got another recommendation from one of their long time personal tuners and that guy (without seeing the piano) tossed out a quote of $2200-$2400. Of course my bosses want to go with the cheaper guy, but my piano tech (who was out today tuning my piano) is warning me of all the things that can go wrong when you go with the lowest price. And of course, no one here knows either of the guys who would be doing the actual work -- both guys are referrals from our personal piano tuners.
So my question is how much is a realistic price for replacing the tuning pins with larger ones and restringing in a 9 ft concert grand? Is $2200 suspiciously cheap? Or is $5K an overpriced "I don't really want to do this job so I'll quote high" rate? I know that when I heard the initial ballpark of $1800 I thought it seemed really low, but since i have no idea what this sort of work actually costs, I had no actual reason to think that - just a gut feeling. So I'm trying to figure out what the typical cost for this project is so that we can decide if we want to go with expensive guy, cheap guy, or keep shopping around.
Thanks for any info you can provide!
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I had one of the local wiz kids who is a great stringer do just the top two treble sections of a 9' Yamaha that gets beat up in a church... that was $1200 without repinning, though he used more expensive (better for getting beat up) wire. I don't feel the $1800 was realistic and I'd be suspicious of the $2200 too! (But that might reflect Chicago prices. Decent bass strings aren't cheap even outside of Chicago) Or are they talking about reusing the strings!?! At a minimum, the cast iron (capo section) should be reshaped before stringing.
I know many techs are squeamish about cyanoacrylate (super glue) treatment of the pins on Steinways, but it may buy time to budget for more extensive work in the future. Done carefully by someone familiar with the process (and the thinnest, best quality glue) often leads to years if not decades of consistent tuning.
The thing is, there is probably more to be done over and above just restringing and repinning to get back to performance level, so while the strings are off that would be the time to dig deeper if needed. -
Thanks Ron - I'm pretty sure (though not positive, as I'm not always there when the piano is worked on) that our current tech has tried the glue treatment for a few of the problematic pins -- I know he has tried banging them down harder and a few other temporary fixes (which I think include the glue injection but might not) but nothing has worked long-term. There was some discussion of perhaps reusing the strings and maybe that's where the 1800 figure came from. I don't know what it means when you say the cast iron capo section should be reshaped before stringing - can you explain in less techy terms LOL! It had a full action overhaul with all new hammers a few years ago by our current tech (he's an action guy) so at least that's in good shape (though the action is very heavy....not sure there's anything that can be done about that -- I was under the impression that that's kind of innate to 9 ft Steinways from that era but maybe that's another thing I just made up in my head.)
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About that capo section - Somewhere in the tenor/treble, the wires change from going through agraffes (or those little brass things with 1,2 or 3 holes) on the way from the tuning pins to the vibrating section of wires - to going under part of the cast iron of the plate, which provides the termination for the vibrating portion of the string. Cast iron is softer than the wires, so they dig in which can cause both sonic and tuning issues. To reshape that little rounded off section that all those wires cross is an important step in a quality restring.
I was never a fan of tapping in strings though it is one of the 'old school' techniques that many techs respect. Difficult to say why the glue treatment didn't work. On some brands there is difficulty getting the glue down to where it needs to go, but not Steinways. Often using a glue that isn't thin enough or putting too much on at once will seal the space between tuning pin and pinblock preventing subsequent applications - instead of soaking deeply into the wood. A few light applications over time seems to work better for me rather than trying to do a "quick fix" in one treatment.
There is a lot written on 'action balancing' by different techs, but David Stanwood is perhaps the best known for a system of measuring, changing leverage and weights to achieve a much smoother playing action. This goes beyond the traditional method of returning the action to factory specs. He even came up with an adjustable leverage concept making it possible to quickly adjust for a bit heavier or lighter feel. https://www.stanwoodpiano.com/
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@ShiroKuro Great idea! yes if you wouldn't mind posting and getting some price ranges without any details (in case any of the techs in question are lurking about there!) I would really appreciate it!
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Part of the issue is that we are a non profit (so kinda broke, although our founder is pretty wealthy and would probably float it if we can convince him its necessary). And also, the piano belonged to, appeared on album covers, and was toured with by Keith Emerson of ELP. So we're walking the fine line between keeping things as original as possible so it remains like it was when Keith played it and doing the necesary maintenance to make it usable for our performances now. The hammers and shanks were already done - that was way before my time but they apparently had to be done, no way around it - and the action was tweaked to be as light as our tech could get it (which IMO is still pretty heavy, but according to my coworkers, it's MUCH better than it used to be.) The fact that the piano has rock-star provenance means we are committed to keeping it -- there's no option to replace the piano which I saw some folks on SK's FB page were cavalierly recommending LOL.
The piano tech said he has tried the CA treatment on a few pins but says it's "ok for some pin locks, not so much on hex - a grip pinblocks that Steinway uses" and that it's really meant for one or 2 pins, not the whole area.
I also figured out that both of those prices include reusing the current strings, which our tech recommended doing. (Again, though, he's not an expert) I also don't think there's anything wrong with the soundboard or he would have said something. Plus the piano overall still sounds jawdroppingly amazing - it just tends to not quite hold the exact tuning for long (and some notes are definitely worse than others in that regard).
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Part of the issue is that we are a non profit (so kinda broke, although our founder is pretty wealthy and would probably float it if we can convince him its necessary). And also, the piano belonged to, appeared on album covers, and was toured with by Keith Emerson of ELP. So we're walking the fine line between keeping things as original as possible so it remains like it was when Keith played it and doing the necesary maintenance to make it usable for our performances now. The hammers and shanks were already done - that was way before my time but they apparently had to be done, no way around it - and the action was tweaked to be as light as our tech could get it (which IMO is still pretty heavy, but according to my coworkers, it's MUCH better than it used to be.) The fact that the piano has rock-star provenance means we are committed to keeping it -- there's no option to replace the piano which I saw some folks on SK's FB page were cavalierly recommending LOL.
The piano tech said he has tried the CA treatment on a few pins but says it's "ok for some pin locks, not so much on hex - a grip pinblocks that Steinway uses" and that it's really meant for one or 2 pins, not the whole area.
I also figured out that both of those prices include reusing the current strings, which our tech recommended doing. (Again, though, he's not an expert) I also don't think there's anything wrong with the soundboard or he would have said something. Plus the piano overall still sounds jawdroppingly amazing - it just tends to not quite hold the exact tuning for long (and some notes are definitely worse than others in that regard).
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Down the rabbit hole - once you start doing SOME work, how much else should get done too? Steinway boards are compression crowned and notorious for losing life after a few decades, (especially in the melody section) so if you are going to replace the pinblock and have all the strings out, then what about the soundboard? You are entering "full rebuild" territory when you start considering pinblock replacement.
One option I know rebuilders use to continue using a pinblock (save money) is to remove all the pins, plug the holes and redrill to the standard sized tuning pins.
But back to the question. Pins are only slightly fatter and don't change anything with the scale. However if the pinblock is compromised, larger pins can act as wedges to cause more weakness. Again, they are only slightly larger so causing more problems is the rare occurance - usually a tech will see a line of pins that are loose, indicating a possible crack in the structure of the pinblock below and hesitate before putting much large pins in.
Another possible issue with reusing strings are if there is any micro-corrosion on them, it tends to add friction where the strings pass over felt - which can cause tuning stability issues.
CA treatment - there is still a wide range of tech opinions from "that's not a real repair" to "never had a problem after decades of use". Success sometimes depends on indoor humidity at the time of application(s)
Bottom line? If you like your tech who can work in your budget, follow that recommendation because they will be the one following up on care!
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Part of the issue is that we are a non profit (so kinda broke, although our founder is pretty wealthy and would probably float it if we can convince him its necessary). And also, the piano belonged to, appeared on album covers, and was toured with by Keith Emerson of ELP. So we're walking the fine line between keeping things as original as possible so it remains like it was when Keith played it and doing the necesary maintenance to make it usable for our performances now. The hammers and shanks were already done - that was way before my time but they apparently had to be done, no way around it - and the action was tweaked to be as light as our tech could get it (which IMO is still pretty heavy, but according to my coworkers, it's MUCH better than it used to be.) The fact that the piano has rock-star provenance means we are committed to keeping it -- there's no option to replace the piano which I saw some folks on SK's FB page were cavalierly recommending LOL.
The piano tech said he has tried the CA treatment on a few pins but says it's "ok for some pin locks, not so much on hex - a grip pinblocks that Steinway uses" and that it's really meant for one or 2 pins, not the whole area.
I also figured out that both of those prices include reusing the current strings, which our tech recommended doing. (Again, though, he's not an expert) I also don't think there's anything wrong with the soundboard or he would have said something. Plus the piano overall still sounds jawdroppingly amazing - it just tends to not quite hold the exact tuning for long (and some notes are definitely worse than others in that regard).
@Lisa said in A piano question re: repinning cost:
Plus the piano overall still sounds jawdroppingly amazing - it just tends to not quite hold the exact tuning for long (and some notes are definitely worse than others in that regard).
ah, ok, so this is interesting... in other words, it sounds great but doesn't hold the tuning as long as it should, or as long as it used to, correct?
In that case, I might advocate for putting off the repairs for maybe a year or two, understanding it will need slightly more frequent tunings during that time. Then save up some money and maybe plan to do a little more work than is being discussed at present, because of the piano's history.
Either way, I think the board needs to understand that the low number may not be the best choice, and once work is begun, it may become clear that more is needed...
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" So we're walking the fine line between keeping things as original as possible so it remains like it was when Keith played it and doing the necesary maintenance to make it usable for our performances now."
Keeping it like it was just is not possible. The piano was changing when Keith had it and it has continued and will continue to change. You can't put a piano in a bottle. Even if you had all original parts, the wood changes over time, the soundboard degrades... the non-profit's board needs to give up on this idea. It's a 50 year old piano, and not from Steinway's golden age. It's not going to get better and better, like a violin. It will get worse and worse, until a rebuild is necessary if they want to keep using it as a performance instrument.
I think SK's suggestion is really the best bet if they are short on funds--just keep tuning it. When that no longer works, get it rebuilt--new everything except the case and the plate. Maybe they can save up the money for that in the meantime--have a fundraiser. They are going to need a piano rebuilding fund if they want to keep it. Last I knew you could get a good rebuild done for about $20k, but I'm sure that's different now.
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I'd at least get a quote for at least re-stringing--new pins and new strings. All that work to keep 50+year old strings (especially bass strings) is not the best use of funds IMO....and since they'd be pulling the dampers out anyway, new damper felt.
Otherwise, CA the whole block, or spot treat problematic pins as needed.
I'd plan on the more complete job sooner than later though. A couple rough dry/humid swings can take a marginal block like you have now, to one that can't be counted on to get through a performance. (really replacing the block would be even better, but I understand about budgets)
A good $20k rebuild (particularly on a 9ft piano) hasn't been around for many, many years. $40-60 on that size piano if your doing action/block-board/finish. Good parts and people are expensive.
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The "cheap" guy is supposed to be coming March 31 to look at the piano and give a firm quote, but we are going to need to reschedule that because we have another offsite thing that day that we can't move. I have said that I would like to be there when the piano tech comes, so I will keep you posted as to what he says. We definitely don't have $40-60K for the full rebuild nor could we afford to have no piano for as long as a full rebuild would take.
Our current tech has looked over the soundboard and says it's fine. He also says the strings are fine - no rust, etc. (It's possible they aren't the original strings - I wouldn't be suprised if they were replaced somewhere along the line). The piano has a dampp-chaser system and an undercover, and it's kept under a custom fitted thick quilted cover all the time unless it's being played, so there should be pretty good humidity control. We try to keep the humidity controlled in the room its in but that has been harder - I know it does fluctuate a bit in the room.
I know that my own personal piano, a 1920s Chickering grand which I purchased semi-rebuilt in 2004, had the larger tuning pins installed as part of the work that was done to it before I got it (it had the larger tuning pins, some action work including new hammers (although not a full replacement because the whippens are apparently a Chickering-one-off special and no modern parts will fit) and a refinish. It sill has the original soundboard which still sounds great although it has lost some crown over the years. The piano has been rock solid for the last 20 years so I do have faith that the larger tuning pins in the existing block can work. Whether it's the best approach -- I dunno. I do believe there is a lot to be said for the quality of wood that was available in the past (even 50 years ago) vs. what's available now, although I'd imagine they try to source new pinblocks from old-growth wood. Still, I know our guiding philosophy with all of our restorations (we do a lot of electronic instruments as well) has been to try to keep things original as much as possible unless original is just plain non-functional.
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@Lisa said in A piano question re: repinning cost:
Plus the piano overall still sounds jawdroppingly amazing - it just tends to not quite hold the exact tuning for long (and some notes are definitely worse than others in that regard).
ah, ok, so this is interesting... in other words, it sounds great but doesn't hold the tuning as long as it should, or as long as it used to, correct?
In that case, I might advocate for putting off the repairs for maybe a year or two, understanding it will need slightly more frequent tunings during that time. Then save up some money and maybe plan to do a little more work than is being discussed at present, because of the piano's history.
Either way, I think the board needs to understand that the low number may not be the best choice, and once work is begun, it may become clear that more is needed...
@ShiroKuro said in A piano question re: repinning cost:
@Lisa said in A piano question re: repinning cost:
Plus the piano overall still sounds jawdroppingly amazing - it just tends to not quite hold the exact tuning for long (and some notes are definitely worse than others in that regard).
ah, ok, so this is interesting... in other words, it sounds great but doesn't hold the tuning as long as it should, or as long as it used to, correct?
In that case, I might advocate for putting off the repairs for maybe a year or two, understanding it will need slightly more frequent tunings during that time.
That's kind of what we've been doing. But it has gotten to the point where one or two notes will be out of tune pretty much within a day of tuning it -- even with staying covered and with the damp chaser -- I think the pins are just slipping. It is unfortunately at the point where something needs to be done.
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Another vote against reusing old strings - ultimately going to cost you more over the long haul. I know Chicago is a different market from yours, but you might want to explore and see if another institution or individual might have a suitable piano replacement. Over the past 3 years I've seen some amazing things offered here. In one case, it was Baldwin SD10 for $1,500 - and in better than decent shape - but they needed it out - IMMEDIATELY. I thought wrong thoughts for a moment. In another instance, someone literally offered two Steinway Ds for free - allegedly - but who knows - in useable condition. Still, you might want to put the word out to techs in the community if there's an older philanthropist who might have a suitable instrument that could be used. You could either keep the current D until you have funds to do more work - or sell it to someone who could restore it to its old glory. When I'm no longer able, I would like to donate my piano to someone with talent but without funds - and even provide some funds to maintain just to see it have a happy home. Of course, that assumes that our current President doesn't ruin the economy - and we have to trade the piano for eggs.
