Reports from the heartland
-
Thanks for giving me that grace, wtg. And I read your post anyway. Just FYI, I would never ever insult someone by calling them stupid to their face. It's what I think, and I'm sharing those thoughts here, but no one should construe that to mean that I disrespect people in person by calling them stupid. Or even in a place where they might see it. I've had hundreds of friendly conversations about politics across kitchen tables in conservative homes over many years. I always learn something, I always open myself to their perspective. I'm a trained reporter, and in many of those conversations I was doing my job by listening with openeness and curiosity to learn about a different perspective.
We are now well past all of that. The threat to the nation is dire. There's no room for that any more. I think the dems did listen. I think they did accommodate. I think Trump voters are in thrall to their churches and to overseas interference and to disinformation. This is a mass delusion. They haven't just voted against our interests, but against their own interests. Trying to understand them further is futile. I don't know what will break the spell, but something will eventually.
-
@wtg said in Reports from the heartland:
Smerconish did a lengthy intro to his show today. Much to consider in what he says....8 min video...
Good piece. I think there is much truth in what he says. I watched Trump's barbershop piece. You could tell that is where he felt most comfortable, most himself, was with the guys there. I've seen it in other milieus as well.
-
Maher was good too.
-
I’ve been reading opinion pieces for the last several days. No one seems to have a clue what happened but I’ve come to my own conclusion.
Trump promised cheap groceries. Harris did not.
Everything else is noise.
-
I don’t know about that. I don’t like the inflation but in my mind there was never any doubt that we’d need inflation to reduce the debt. I’ve been surprised it didn’t happen earlier.
There’s a spectrum of reasons, really too many to list.
-
@Mik No one cares about the debt, especially not Trump voters. Don’t believe me? Just watch.
It’s the price of eggs that tipped the scales.
And fast food.
-
Whatever the reason for the Dems loss, the DNC will never figure it out.
-
Not if they are unwilling to look deeply. Pelosi blaming Biden is an indication they will not.
-
It's true that people assess their lives by whether they can afford things, a little luxury, a new car or holiday. If not, they are ready to punish people in power.
Yet the USA has economic growth we Brits can only dream about; your inflation, your pay packets."It's hard to summon up the kind of empathy which explains why someone votes for Donald Trump. It's hard to conceive of how someone could hear him talk of eugenics, could watch him slip into violent fantasies, could see this representation of all the most selfish and childish instincts in the human personality and think:
yeah, I want more of that." -
I think @Mik ‘s point is important. We won’t get anywhere by looking down on our neighbors or making already alienated groups feel more alienated.
At the same time, many people did indeed vote against their own interests, and it’s really hard to deal with that. (Hence all the “Leopards Ate My Face” stuff)
@Steve-Miller said in Reports from the heartland:
I’ve been reading opinion pieces for the last several days. No one seems to have a clue what happened but I’ve come to my own conclusion.
Trump promised cheap groceries. Harris did not.
Everything else is noise.
I suspect this is more than half, but not 100% of what happened.
Trump didn’t win this election for just one reason.
I agree that there is a large contingent of Trump voters who are motivated by “the economy.” But there is also a not insignificant group who are truly motivated by the most hateful parts of Trump’s rhetoric. They are scared of the changes they see in America, they’re afraid that increasing diversity means there won’t be a place for them any more, and they respond to the hatemongering and say “yep, that’s it, that’s what I want.”
I think the reason Trump won is probably threefold: 1) because he was able to get the votes of both of those groups, the economy people and the hate/afraid people; 2) because Dems weren’t able to convince the economy people that Dems would actually be better for the economy, and 3) because Dems weren’t able to reach across the aisle to both groups and appeal to our mutual humanity, to make those connections.
Ok, fourfold: 4) because Biden didn’t drop out of the race much, much sooner so that the Dems could have had more time to move the needle on numbers 2 and 3.
Ok, fivefold: 5) the people who could not hold their noses and vote for Harris because of what's happening with Israel and Gaza, so they stayed home, or worse, they voted for Jill Stein.
I truly believe each of these factors played a role and addressing only one would not have had much impact on the end result. We would have had to address, to resolve, each of them.
-
@AndyD said in Reports from the heartland:
"It's hard to summon up the kind of empathy which explains why someone votes for Donald Trump. It's hard to conceive of how someone could hear him talk of eugenics, could watch him slip into violent fantasies, could see this representation of all the most selfish and childish instincts in the human personality and think:
yeah, I want more of that."Andy, who said that? (If it’s in the thread and I missed it, apologies)
Anyway, I get this. For many of us, it’s very hard to have any empathy toward anyone who supports Trump because what we see first and foremost are these elements: the eugenics, the racism, the misogyny, the hate, the narcissism…
Somehow, many people, when they look at Trump, don’t see those things as primary, if they see them at all. Or, like those looking at the leopard, somehow, magically, think it doesn’t apply to them.
-
Sorry, I have to add to my list above.
Sixfold: 6) we have to recognize that another big influence on this election was surely right wing news media and proliferation of the fake news.
-
From the Wapo:
"Eight columnists responded. Charles Lane might have gotten off the best one-liner: “Democrats have been acting like the proverbial American tourist in France, trying to get their point across by shouting louder in a language only they understand.” -
Really great guests and discussion on Fareed's GPS this morning. David Frum and Ezra Klein, Oren Cass, and the editor of The Economist (can't remember her name).
If you have access to CNN and can watch it, do it.
When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier
-
You forgot the wealthy and those with an interest in his tax cuts for them and liberation from government control. Also you forgot the Christian evangelicals who believe Trump was sent by god. Where I live, those appear to be the two most potent forces. I'm not buying the economy theory. People are actually better off economically under Biden than they were under Trump. And Trump has offered less than zero to make the economy better. Musk promised economical pain under a Trump administration.
There's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here that just isn't in alignment with reality.
The uber rich want Trump because they are greedy. Lots of non rich people want to be rich so they follow the lead of the rich.
From what I see in Trump country, the number of folks who voted for him because of grocery and gas prices has to be vanishingly small. They are all economically better off with Biden. This is greed and mass delusion fueled by a propaganda machine. An the weirdos who think a Trump presidency is somehow better for the Palestinians. See what I mean about mass delusion?
-
@wtg said in Reports from the heartland:
Really great guests and discussion on Fareed's GPS this morning. David Frum and Ezra Klein, Oren Cass, and the editor of The Economist (can't remember her name).
If you have access to CNN and can watch it, do it.
Fareed's take, which is the intro to the show:
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/video/fareeds-take-gps-2024-election-results-digvid
When a transcript of the entire show is posted online, I'll link it in this thread. Might be a few days.
Frum is most concerned about what Trump will do once he is inaugurated. He thinks that the US has made it this long because in the past, the elected people were willing to play by the rules and maintain high standards. He thinks the GOP elite have basically sold out and that rough waters may be ahead. He thinks 1) Trump will pardon the January 6th rioters, 2) Ukraine is toast and 3) he'll give away Taiwan.
Also lots of discussion about how rocky things are in Canada, Europe, and the UK with respect to their incumbent governments. Lots of turmoil.
I think we can say that we live in interesting times.
-
I find their post-mortem with Alan Lichtman far more on point:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/video/fareeds-take-gps-2024-election-results-digvid
I hope that takes you to the correct video. If not, scroll down the selections until you find Lichtman's. Corporate greed and massive disinformation are the new keys. I strongly agree.
fear is the thief of dreams
-
I agree with Bernie Sanders in the short clip they also had from him, where he talks about how Dems should have had a much stronger message about the true culprit in our divided nation: the billionaire class who are pitting us against each other for their own benefit. The rise of the oligarchy is the real threat to us.
-
@pique said in Reports from the heartland:
I find their post-mortem with Alan Lichtman far more on point:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/video/fareeds-take-gps-2024-election-results-digvid
I hope that takes you to the correct video. If not, scroll down the selections until you find Lichtman's. Corporate greed and massive disinformation are the new keys. I strongly agree.
Found the video, will watch a bit later.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/08/politics/video/allan-lichtman-wrong-prediction-keys-election-digvid
When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the garden - Minnie Aumônier
-
The WaPo also has an article about the new right wing government in New Zealand (a number of Kiwis responded by saying that their right wing is nothing like our right wing, and besides, their government swing right-left-right every three years). What I found interesting about it is they reported on an international organization that is working to swing countries all over the world to right wing populism.
This has me thinking that what is really going on here is is that late-stage capitalism has created a world where a few ultra-wealthy activists are working to control governments everywhere to shape politics to their advantage. In their preferred world, there are no limits on their business ventures, ordinary people cannot get in their way, and climate and environmental considerations have to be put to death. Because of the internet and social media, and their control of many media outlets, and the lack of restraint on the press as far as publishing only what is accurate, they can shape world opinion with disinformation without limits. Create alternate realities, control the culture. I have no doubt that Elon Musk's involvement in Trump's reelection has some nefarious aspects we may never learn about. These people want to own the world and bend it to their will. And they appear to have succeeded. Because of disinformation, the general public is focussed on entirely the wrong things.
