Chopin's Op.72, No. 1
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Being one of his opus posthumous Nocturnes, it's also one I'm learning.
I absolutely love this recording by Pachmann from 1927. I suspect he'd take a bit of flak from today's musicologists for playing it this way. No matter, I think it's sublime. Thee rubato is really something. No subtle effects here!
According to Chopin Review, ...
Vladimir de Pachmann’s 1927 recording of Chopin’s Nocturne in E minor, Op. 72 No. 1 testifies to a temperament in which different triads have different qualities, timbres differ depending on the different relationships between overtones, Chopin seems to be intentionally milking these differences, and the subtleties of his music seem to multiply a thousandfold.
Very interesting.
Link to video -
Being one of his opus posthumous Nocturnes, it's also one I'm learning.
I absolutely love this recording by Pachmann from 1927. I suspect he'd take a bit of flak from today's musicologists for playing it this way. No matter, I think it's sublime. Thee rubato is really something. No subtle effects here!
According to Chopin Review, ...
Vladimir de Pachmann’s 1927 recording of Chopin’s Nocturne in E minor, Op. 72 No. 1 testifies to a temperament in which different triads have different qualities, timbres differ depending on the different relationships between overtones, Chopin seems to be intentionally milking these differences, and the subtleties of his music seem to multiply a thousandfold.
Very interesting.
Link to video@bernard that's lovely!!
@Bernard said in Chopin's Op.72, No. 1:
I suspect he'd take a bit of flak from today's musicologists for playing it this way.
I don't know a lot about what would be expected. What aspects of his interpretation do you think would be the most disagreed with?
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@bernard that's lovely!!
@Bernard said in Chopin's Op.72, No. 1:
I suspect he'd take a bit of flak from today's musicologists for playing it this way.
I don't know a lot about what would be expected. What aspects of his interpretation do you think would be the most disagreed with?
@ShiroKuro I shouldn't generalize. Some, I think, would have something to say about the rubato. Although I must say, I'm struggling with the topic right now. I thought I understood it, but last semester's class had me seriously questioning if I really did. Some of Pachmann's right hand entrances are almost half a beat behind! (But I like what he does.) His left hand is generally kind of steady, but even it speeds up and slows down now and then.
It seems to me I took some questions in class for using rubato and some discussions ensued. The teacher wanted to emphasize that the left hand must always remain steady. (But I've since read that there were two types of rubato in use during Chopin's time, and in the newer style both hands could be free, within reason I'd imagine.)
The confusing thing, though, was the day he said he'd play the melody on one piano while I played the left hand. Well! His rubato was far more--a lot more--than what I'd originally played! But he said to take rubato at the beginnings and ends of measures, generally not mid-measure.
So now I'm feeling a little bit confused. It could be that my rubato was too improvised, so to say, rather than planned, and that could have made it unclear. I'm proceeding cautiously until it gets clearer.
The industrial revolution cheapened everything.
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I think the recording is beautiful. By the way, have you seen that video where Seymour Bernstein argues that “hairpins” in Chopin and Brahms might mean rubato instead of crescendo and diminuendo? Head-exploding!
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I think the recording is beautiful. By the way, have you seen that video where Seymour Bernstein argues that “hairpins” in Chopin and Brahms might mean rubato instead of crescendo and diminuendo? Head-exploding!
@RealPlayer I'm not sure it's the same video (it might be!), but I've seen something similar.
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@ShiroKuro I shouldn't generalize. Some, I think, would have something to say about the rubato. Although I must say, I'm struggling with the topic right now. I thought I understood it, but last semester's class had me seriously questioning if I really did. Some of Pachmann's right hand entrances are almost half a beat behind! (But I like what he does.) His left hand is generally kind of steady, but even it speeds up and slows down now and then.
It seems to me I took some questions in class for using rubato and some discussions ensued. The teacher wanted to emphasize that the left hand must always remain steady. (But I've since read that there were two types of rubato in use during Chopin's time, and in the newer style both hands could be free, within reason I'd imagine.)
The confusing thing, though, was the day he said he'd play the melody on one piano while I played the left hand. Well! His rubato was far more--a lot more--than what I'd originally played! But he said to take rubato at the beginnings and ends of measures, generally not mid-measure.
So now I'm feeling a little bit confused. It could be that my rubato was too improvised, so to say, rather than planned, and that could have made it unclear. I'm proceeding cautiously until it gets clearer.
@bernard thanks for sharing this! It’s interesting to read about these ideas and how different people grapple with them.
Rubato especially seems to me to be one of those things were it is especially hard to separate out guiding principles from personal taste!
@Bernard said in Chopin's Op.72, No. 1:
The teacher wanted to emphasize that the left hand must always remain steady.
Yes, I learned that as well. I always thought of that as a point of commonality between classical and jazz…
(But I've since read that there were two types of rubato in use during Chopin's time, and in the newer style both hands could be free, within reason I'd imagine.)
Oh interesting!
he said to take rubato at the beginnings and ends of measures, generally not mid-measure.
That’s very interesting because it goes against advice I’ve received about making sure the downbeat is always in time. Of course, I can’t remember what music that was related to, so it might not be relevant for Chopin.
Also, it seems like taking rubato at measure turning points would bleed into actual ritardando or accelerando.
So now I'm feeling a little bit confused. It could be that my rubato was too improvised, so to say, rather than planned, and that could have made it unclear. I'm proceeding cautiously until it gets clearer.
Have you recorded yourself playing it different ways and compared to see which ones you like?
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I think the recording is beautiful. By the way, have you seen that video where Seymour Bernstein argues that “hairpins” in Chopin and Brahms might mean rubato instead of crescendo and diminuendo? Head-exploding!
@RealPlayer said in Chopin's Op.72, No. 1:
By the way, have you seen that video where Seymour Bernstein argues that “hairpins” in Chopin and Brahms might mean rubato instead of crescendo and diminuendo? Head-exploding!
OMG! Head-exploding indeed!
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I think the recording is beautiful. By the way, have you seen that video where Seymour Bernstein argues that “hairpins” in Chopin and Brahms might mean rubato instead of crescendo and diminuendo? Head-exploding!
@RealPlayer said in Chopin's Op.72, No. 1:
I think the recording is beautiful. By the way, have you seen that video where Seymour Bernstein argues that “hairpins” in Chopin and Brahms might mean rubato instead of crescendo and diminuendo? Head-exploding!
Bernstein is in this video; not sure if it's the specific one you were referring to.
Link to video -
@RealPlayer said in Chopin's Op.72, No. 1:
I think the recording is beautiful. By the way, have you seen that video where Seymour Bernstein argues that “hairpins” in Chopin and Brahms might mean rubato instead of crescendo and diminuendo? Head-exploding!
Bernstein is in this video; not sure if it's the specific one you were referring to.
Link to video@wtg Yes, that's the one!
