The lesson of 1933
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I can't agree with your condemnation, Bernard. She acknowledges that she may be cowardly or overreacting, but her fear is all too rational. As the saying goes, "Even paranoid people have real enemies." Her Jewish ancestry gives her even more cause for fear, given a few thousand years of history.
What would be even more frightening would be the situation that arose in Germany where even those who wanted to flee were, in many cases, unable to find a safe refuge to go to. So far, that is not the case.
Big Al
Money seems to buy the most happiness when you give it away.
Why does everything have to be so complicated, all in the name of convenience. -ShiroKuro
A lifetime of experience will change a person. If it doesn't, then you're already dead inside. -MarkJ
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I can't agree with your condemnation, Bernard. She acknowledges that she may be cowardly or overreacting, but her fear is all too rational. As the saying goes, "Even paranoid people have real enemies." Her Jewish ancestry gives her even more cause for fear, given a few thousand years of history.
What would be even more frightening would be the situation that arose in Germany where even those who wanted to flee were, in many cases, unable to find a safe refuge to go to. So far, that is not the case.
Big Al
but her fear is all too rational
And everyone's else's is not?
If she doesn't want to stay and fight with the rest of us--who by the way have as much to lose as she does, especially those of us who are gay--then she should shut up, unless she's willing to foot the bill for the millions who don't have the where with all to leave. She's gaining celebrity status from running away, that's the problem.
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but her fear is all too rational
And everyone's else's is not?
If she doesn't want to stay and fight with the rest of us--who by the way have as much to lose as she does, especially those of us who are gay--then she should shut up, unless she's willing to foot the bill for the millions who don't have the where with all to leave. She's gaining celebrity status from running away, that's the problem.
@Bernard said in The lesson of 1933:
but her fear is all too rational
And everyone's else's is not?
If she doesn't want to stay and fight with the rest of us--who by the way have as much to lose as she does, especially those of us who are gay--then she should shut up, unless she's willing to foot the bill for the millions who don't have the where with all to leave. She's gaining celebrity status from running away, that's the problem.
I don't agree with your assessment, but I can understand your opinion.
I don't think she has deliberately sought celebrity as much as had it come to her as an exemplifier of a potential choice.
The choice of flight or fight doesn't consider the other possibility of hunkering down and waiting for the storm to pass. Each person has those choices to make. Disrespecting other people's choices is at least a contributor to the mess we now find ourselves in.
Big Al
Money seems to buy the most happiness when you give it away.
Why does everything have to be so complicated, all in the name of convenience. -ShiroKuro
A lifetime of experience will change a person. If it doesn't, then you're already dead inside. -MarkJ
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I can't agree with your condemnation, Bernard. She acknowledges that she may be cowardly or overreacting, but her fear is all too rational. As the saying goes, "Even paranoid people have real enemies." Her Jewish ancestry gives her even more cause for fear, given a few thousand years of history.
What would be even more frightening would be the situation that arose in Germany where even those who wanted to flee were, in many cases, unable to find a safe refuge to go to. So far, that is not the case.
Big Al
@Big_Al said in The lesson of 1933:
even those who wanted to flee were, in many cases, unable to find a safe refuge to go to. So far, that is not the case.
Most people are not able to choose to just leave the country, relocate, and get automatically set up in a new job etc.
I totally get where @Bernard is coming from.
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@Bernard said in The lesson of 1933:
but her fear is all too rational
And everyone's else's is not?
If she doesn't want to stay and fight with the rest of us--who by the way have as much to lose as she does, especially those of us who are gay--then she should shut up, unless she's willing to foot the bill for the millions who don't have the where with all to leave. She's gaining celebrity status from running away, that's the problem.
I don't agree with your assessment, but I can understand your opinion.
I don't think she has deliberately sought celebrity as much as had it come to her as an exemplifier of a potential choice.
The choice of flight or fight doesn't consider the other possibility of hunkering down and waiting for the storm to pass. Each person has those choices to make. Disrespecting other people's choices is at least a contributor to the mess we now find ourselves in.
Big Al
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I'd be more sympathetic if she wasn't in every major publication giving interviews telling everyone what we already know. Where's the grace to say she doesn't have anything new to add? Does she really understand her privilege? It seems to me if she did, she be a lot more sensitive to the fact that most people don't have a choice. Talk about respect for choices. But she goes on and on in article after article bringing attention to the fact that she's not up to the fight--and with all that knowledge! I find it grossly insensitive and it really annoys me. I don't respect her choice to leave with so much noise and ado. I wouldn't have all that much respect even if she left quietly, and I know others who have. And yeah, I think they are cop outs. Good riddance. When things get tough, the tough get going. There is such a thing as valor.
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This is the part in the article that sets me off:
She also worries that instead of fighting back, “people become atomised. The arbitrariness of terror atomises people. You know, people put their heads down, they go quiet, they get in line, if only for the very reasonable, rational reason that any individual acting rationally has a reason to think that the personal cost of refusing to make a compromise is going to be greater than the social benefit of their one act of resistance. So you get a classic collective action problem.”
How dare she. She--the one who, instead of fighting back, leaves the country. Check your privilege, please!
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She's very fortunate to be privileged enough to up and leave. And her pontificating on people becoming "atomised" and not fighting back leaves a definite sour note. She is a hypocrite and coward. Good luck to her, watching from the sidelines. It's as bad as bone spurs.
@Bernard said in The lesson of 1933:
She's very fortunate to be privileged enough to up and leave. And her pontificating on people becoming "atomised" and not fighting back leaves a definite sour note. She is a hypocrite and coward. Good luck to her, watching from the sidelines. It's as bad as bone spurs.
She was speaking as a historian, describing what actually happens in totalitarian societies, not criticizing us. She was warning that this is what tends to happen.
I think she and her husband make a very important statement by leaving. It tells us far more than just writing an editorial. It speaks to the reality of the danger we are in. And she is correct that if we are to learn from history, the sooner one leaves, the better one's chances of surviving.
I am also a descendant of eastern-European Jews who fled pogroms. I grew up hearing about the Holocaust from relatives who were involved--two great-uncles who fought to save European Jewry in the 1930s and 40s. One who made direct appeals to FDR (that were ignored), another who was stationed overseas during those years, and then were both directly involved in resettling survivors of the death camps. They had a lot of wisdom to impart to those of us lucky enough to grow up in America.
As such, if you grow up in this context, you have a built-in radar for situations like the one we are in now. I've been feeling like it is time to have a go-bag ready since the election of 2016. I do not resent this woman for getting out--sure she is privileged to be able to do so. And she has the education and the insight to realize it is time. No good purpose is served by her staying and putting her children at risk. I say, if you feel as she does, and you have the means, then get the hell out and save yourself.
You could say that her very act of getting out and writing about it is performing a great public service. What better alarm could be sounded of the peril we are in?
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@Bernard said in The lesson of 1933:
She's very fortunate to be privileged enough to up and leave. And her pontificating on people becoming "atomised" and not fighting back leaves a definite sour note. She is a hypocrite and coward. Good luck to her, watching from the sidelines. It's as bad as bone spurs.
She was speaking as a historian, describing what actually happens in totalitarian societies, not criticizing us. She was warning that this is what tends to happen.
I think she and her husband make a very important statement by leaving. It tells us far more than just writing an editorial. It speaks to the reality of the danger we are in. And she is correct that if we are to learn from history, the sooner one leaves, the better one's chances of surviving.
I am also a descendant of eastern-European Jews who fled pogroms. I grew up hearing about the Holocaust from relatives who were involved--two great-uncles who fought to save European Jewry in the 1930s and 40s. One who made direct appeals to FDR (that were ignored), another who was stationed overseas during those years, and then were both directly involved in resettling survivors of the death camps. They had a lot of wisdom to impart to those of us lucky enough to grow up in America.
As such, if you grow up in this context, you have a built-in radar for situations like the one we are in now. I've been feeling like it is time to have a go-bag ready since the election of 2016. I do not resent this woman for getting out--sure she is privileged to be able to do so. And she has the education and the insight to realize it is time. No good purpose is served by her staying and putting her children at risk. I say, if you feel as she does, and you have the means, then get the hell out and save yourself.
You could say that her very act of getting out and writing about it is performing a great public service. What better alarm could be sounded of the peril we are in?
@pique They didn't just leave. They made a video for the NYTimes. An extremely frightening video that borders on hyperbole at times. Not that I think they are wrong, but I do think their tone is more destructive than helpful, especially for the 99% of Americans who cannot leave. They did not leave a single helpful suggestion in their video. And the tone of the video contributes to the overall impression of disconnect; ringing the bell loudly while walking away, saying over their shoulders, 'see ya'.
At the end of the video, I'm left with the impression that I've watched a very negative political campaign ad in which the candidate says, I don't intend to run for office. Just thought I'd mention it while my privileged position allows me to run away. They could have done a whole lot better to get their message across. The video is in extremely poor taste, imo.
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As such, if you grow up in this context, you have a built-in radar for situations like the one we are in now.
I grew up not only hearing about homosexuals. I was one, and I lived (and continue to live) the experience. In isolation in a sheltered "Christian family" where every Sunday (it seems) I'd hear condemnation of "those" homosexuals. In a time and place where, to my limited knowledge, there were no other people like me. In a time and place so sheltered, the only references to homosexuals were the word "faggot" or "queer", or in church.
There are parts of the US today actively trying to erase us. "Don't say gay". "My people" are under direct attack, and don't think the Chrisitan nationalists aren't trying to take advantage of this packed SCOTUS and the authoritarian atmosphere in the US at this time. ]
At the end of the discussion, I'm left thinking that these professors did themselves no favors, nor did they do anyone else a favor. I suspect a large majority of Americans who have cause to fear were already aware of the situation and that leaving the US is something that had popped into their minds already, if only they had the means. If these professors had taken the time to focus less on themselves and offer some hints as to what ordinary people can or should do in an effort to fight back, they might even have won me over.
But with all their learning they didn't tell us something we didn't already know and they didn't offer any help. Goodbye to them.
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Sorry, I can't agree. I think most Americans are still pretty much asleep. I find in myself the desire to look away, and I'm sure most people would rather not face what we are up against. These people do not have a responsibility to provide advice or suggestions. They are sounding a warning, and IMO, that is public service enough.
Even though I would love to be able to just up and move to Canada with a nice job waiting for me, as they did, the fact that I can't does not make me resent them or begrudge them their choices. I think what they did was smart, and I think being very public about it was also a very responsible thing to do. If they had just quietly disappeared it would not raise awareness. Raising awareness is one thing they can do as a public service, so I admire them for that.
They are not required to sacrifice themselves just because not everyone can leave.
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Also, comparing your experience as gay in America to my experience as a Jew in America is to make what point, exactly? This is not a competition. FWIW, there are many people in my family who are both Jewish AND gay. Many, many kinds of people are at risk right now, not just Jews and gays. I was speaking to my experience as a Jew, and how the culture I was raised in creates a hyper-awareness of this kind of danger. That experience in no way negates or erases yours, which is just as legitimate and real.
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Also, comparing your experience as gay in America to my experience as a Jew in America is to make what point, exactly?
It was to make the point exactly as you have stated. That it isn't only Jews in America affected by current events. It was to make the point--in response to the sentence that I quoted--that I, from my own personal experience, am "tuned in". As if to say, "As if I don't know!" I know first hand.
And yet, I would not do as these professors have done, the way they have done it.
The quote was:
As such, if you grow up in this context, you have a built-in radar for situations like the one we are in now.
You know I am gay, so I thought it was peculiar that you would use the phrase "... if you grow up in this context you have a built-in radar..." when addressing me. It required a response, which I supplied.
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I think my reply made it very clear that I in no way think that only Jews in America are affected. But I can't speak to your experience or anyone else's--only my own. To express mine is not to say yours is invalid.
I'll try to be clearer: I am not saying this woman gets a pass because she is Jewish. I am just explaining how that experience makes me hyper aware of these situations. As your experience makes you very aware also. And I am not saying I would leave the USA because I am Jewish and feel therefore I am more of a target than other people. At the moment, I see no reason to believe that I'm a bigger target than any other ethnic or targeted group. And certainly the queer community is a target. Let's have solidarity on that. I am not comparing risk. I think all of us are at serious risk, except for the very wealthy.
I just didn't take her very public statements the way you did. I took them as something she felt she should do, to warn others, knowing full well not everyone can leave as she did (which she acknowleges). I'm sure if she had advice, suggestions, or help to offer, she would have offered them. Don't you think giving as public a warning as possible about the danger we are in is an important thing to do? Don't you think leaving publicly is a strong and important statment to make that brings attention to what we are facing?
I do.
Not everyone wants to stay and fight. If I had young children, I sure as hell would be turning over every rock to see how I could get them out of here. Don't you think people who can save themselves should do so, even if others can't?
I do.
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Don't you think giving as public a warning as possible about the danger we are in is an important thing to do?
Absolutely, but these 3 professors went well beyond that.
Don't you think leaving publicly is a strong and important statment to make that brings attention to what we are facing?
It depends. There is always a graceful and elegant way to do anything. Putting up a performative video without offering any solutions only draws attention to the fact that they are privileged.
Don't you think people who can save themselves should do so, even if others can't?
I don't know. But it seems premature, we've just started the fight. What about if everyone fights back (as some most certainly are doing)? Why admit defeat ahead of time? "Obey in advance?" History does not have to repeat itself, but it will if everyone continues to cower in fear. We've seen an entire political party cave most cravenly to Trump's demands, national news organizations cave, top national law firms throw away their integrity and any respect they earned for their years of learning. It will come down to the average, ordinary person to save this country.
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deep breath
Gosh it doesn't seem premature to me at all. I'm not seeing where the levers are to turn this disaster around. I'm going to protests. I'm sharing information. I'm having conversations with my neighbors who voted for Trump. I'm signing up for phone banking to defeat the horrible bill before Congress. I'll continue to do whatever I can. But I'm sorry to report that I'm not seeing how we turn this around.
To me, the handwriting is on the wall. The oligarchs have pulled off their hijack, which has been in the works for 60 years. Read the book "Democracy in Chains". We aren't Houdini.
I fully expect I'm going to have to implement my own Plan B. Not what I want, but to me it ain't lookin' good.
