Great summary. From a palestianian no less.
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Because TikTok is such a reliable source of factual information and any videos posted there should be accepted as authentic. Riiight.
@pique said in Great summary. From a palestianian no less.:
Because TikTok is such a reliable source of factual information and any videos posted there should be accepted as authentic. Riiight.
Well, when you actually watch IDF soldiers doing those things, it seems credible - and your suggestion that research will prove the righteousness of the cause - maybe not so much as you believe.
All I'm saying is that Palestinians=Hamas=terrorist doesn't fly with everyone - EVEN many Jews, people who have affection and respect for the Jewish people may not be sold in the black and white vision Israel=good, Palestine=bad. Having said that I think student protestors should in no way equate Jewish students with the actions of Israel anymore than every American should be held responsible for the actions of our current or past Presidents.
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I'm talking about learning the actual history of the region, reading some history books that document what actually happened there, how Israel was founded. None of these student protesters, so far as I can ascertain, know a damn thing about the actual history of the region, because they spout off a lot of garbage that has no basis in reality.
Interestingly, prior to Oct 7th, the U.N. had a white paper on their web site that cited, week by week, month by month, year by year, everything that happened in the region during and since WWI, including all the nitty gritty details of what happened during Israel's founding. It was a straight ahead, just-the-facts, detailing that laid out, in very clear language, without any slant, what transpired, all the way up to the early 1970s.
After Oct 7th, the UN scrubbed that white paper, which had existed on their site as a .pdf that was obviously screen shots of the original text that had been typed up on an old manual typewriter. Now it has been transformed into a highly slanted and biased pro-Palestinian version and rewriting of history.
I'm glad I got to read that white paper before it was scrubbed. At some point, I am going to visit the library at the UN and find it. I originally read it because of the criticisms I have read about Israel, which directly contradicted the accounts of family members, who were actually there as eyewitnesses.
In my view, the pro-Palestinian movement in America has been brainwashed by an anti-semitic narrative that comes from Israel's enemies, and this has been going on a long time.
Plenty of Jews and Palestinians have worked together for decades to find a common peace. Neither Israel/good, Arabs/bad NOR Arabs/good, Israel bad are accurate or useful portrayals. But when American leftists are up in arms about Israel because supposedly they are on "stolen" land, and they defend Hamas as freedom fighters instead of denouncing them as terrorists and promulgators of Jewish genocide, then they have lost me.
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@kluurs Just to be clear, my comments are about news in general and not specifically the situation in Israel and Gaza.
I was responding to your observation about certain stories not appearing in the MSM and that there is information on TikTok and other newer sources of news that isn’t being reported by the MSM. I thought that you think that conventional news sources are intentionally omitting certain stories, and I was merely commenting that my experience doesn’t necessarily match that and that I’m getting much the same information in the MSM. But I read multiple news sources to try and get as complete a picture as possible. My sources don’t happen to be TikTok, etc.
How we consume news has obviously changed in bigly ways. There was a time when we relied on our news organizations to provide factual and unbiased reporting, if such a thing is possible. Journalists were expected to follow rules in their reporting, and they worked for organizations that oversaw their work and enforced a certain structure. Being human entities they of course reflected the inherent biases that we all have. You and I know that the Chicago Tribune has always had a different take on the news than the Sun-Times. But at least in theory there were some agreed upon rules of engagement and an editorial organization in place to ensure as much as possible that journalistic integrity was maintained.
Things have changed a lot with the advent of the internet and information is in the hands of the people rather than just wire services and news outlets that we relied on in the past. Anyone can become a news reporter who reaches millions of people. Minutes after an event has occurred. Information that might have been filtered or omitted in the past is out there for everyone. But the time we used to take to analyze and interpret the facts is now measured in minutes or seconds rather than days or hours.
it’s also the case that the structures which once provided oversight and enforcement of rules are gone, and that potentially has an impact on the quality of the reporting. Throw in the recent advances in AI that allow people to create photos and videos that don’t reflect what actually happened…our world is becoming a blend of the real and the imagined, and things move at lightning speed.
Brave new world. I’m not sure I’m going to survive it.
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For all the documentation and definitions signed up to since WW1, if there is one lesson to be learnt over the last century it is that people are going to take a long time to change.
Human nature remains essentially needy, greedy, jealous, aggressive.Codification of war, of war crimes etc. is all very nice in academia, but the words on paper means little or nothing to despots like Xi (Huyger persecution)and Putin(taking children of Donbass).
The Palestinian army sent into Israel on 7th Oct, sent in to kill & kidnap without regard to age/gender/status, is an army that clearly fights without any rules.
Civilians, soldiery, & ruling authorities, buildings, infrastructure & services, all are targets in their total war to eradicate Israel.When violent invasion occurs by a people of such ideals & character, I see no problem with severe responses such as were taken in WW2.
The decisions to bomb Dresden, make the dam buster raids, even the Nagasaki bomb. The idea that 'you may be able to fight on, but surrender now or we'll take out your cities and population until there's nothing & nobody in your homeland left to fight for'.So I'll continue to support all Israeli actions until the Palestinians release all their hostages.
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Ok, first off - I am not trying to be an apologist for antisemitism any more than Norman Finkelstein or the other Jewish scholars who have spoken against Israel's most recent activities.
As to the "white paper", perhaps ask Norman Finkelstein for a copy - as well as his assessment of its validity. I would also suggest reading the works of Schlomo Sand who served in the IDF and talks of some of his experience - all pre-October 7. Norman Finkelstein has written extensively on the history of Israel. His Gaza is an good review of some of the history - some of which might challenge the Israel=good, Palestine=bad. President Carter's take on dealing with Israel - has some good moments in it as well - where he essentially is told that there would never be peace if a single stone were thrown at a single Israeli.
October 7 is a horrendous act, all the more as the people attacked were some of the best of humanity. The attack was both ugly and evil.
So, but Israeli media report that the videos of preparations for the attack were known by Israeli intelligence. I know some might say, "it was a failure of the Israeli government to follow-up."
Perhaps...
But it some have suggested that Hamas and Netanyahu almost were working in concert. Hamas achieved its goal of showing Israel as the brute - and Netanyahu got to expand Israel's borders for more illegal settlements. The fact that per international law says that Israel has over half a million people living on stolen land - seems to sometimes get overlooked, as does Israel's ability to hold people without due process, or to imprison children as young 11 or 12 or torture prisoners within its system. In any event, Netanyahu is hoping for a final solution of the problem.
Andy, Pique - I would encourage you to explore scholars, scholars, and sources who have a contrary view to your own - even if a white paper which validated your opinion had near biblical truth to it.
Israel has worked hard to control narrative - since the 1960s when John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson - weren't so pro-Israel. That's when AIPAC came into existence. It was particularly true post the attack on the USS Liberty - also a lot of attention there. Some governments like to scrub unpleasant memories of their past - you know - like wars of expansion against Mexico and Spain or the subjugation of an indigenous people or selective laws against a particular race.
There's a lot of unpleasant things to learn about Israel - not all of it may be true - but perhaps should be examined a bit. Like - Harry Truman wanted a new Palestinian government be formed at the same time as Israel was established - and he was holding up the process. His daughter noted that Zionists sent letter bombs to help encourage his support of Israel. True? A necessary strategy?
Pique - those ill-informed students may be more informed that you realize - but have access to information that you've never seen - and might have honest, non-antisemitic origins.
Andy - yes, there's no question that post-October 7 Israel was going to respond - but the depth of its response had a different goal than punishment. Perhaps...and only perhaps..the goal was to fulfill a "manifest destiny" for Israel's borders.
As for antisemitism, I fear that Israel's hand is a bit heavy and may cause an increase in antipathy toward Israel. The fact that both American political parties are heavily influenced by Israel's friends in places of power - isn't quite as unnoticed as it once was. How many politicians can gain office if there is any question of support for Israel? How is that Joe Biden received more AIPAC support in Congress - and thus had an Israeli Secretary of State? Or Donald Trump has said openly that the Mrs. Adelson asks a lot of favors for her contributions - e.g. the moving the US recognition of Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel. Criticize Israel and your job offer is rescinded - your scholarship cancelled.
Again, we've been told that Americans who want to own up to the evil things our nation has been a part of are not real Americans. And there seems to be some of that going on with Israel - that and people can look at a situation and have a different viewpoint - without being evil. Do I think the student protestors are doing good? NOPE - whether it is related to support of Palestine or other issues, I think their strategies actually often harm, rather than help their messaging.
Finally, I think it is a tribute to the Jewish people that so many are willing to stand and criticize Israel's actions. America has many good people - but we too - have a history that has some very ugly things that happened with the full support of it's leadership and a good part of its people.
Again, I'm not apologist for the hellacious acts of Hamas - not all Palestinians are Hamas - and not all Jews are Zionists. It just ain't as simple as "they don't know history" or "what did you expect given October 7?' There is a much more nuanced history - and October 7 had deep antecedents.
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Kluurs, I actually agree with much of what is in your sources. Israel has behaved very opportunistically in its response, destroying and killing much more extensively than was likely needed to achieve military objectives. They have not effectively curtailed the worst instincts of their least ethical soldiers. Some in the IDF likely have committed war crimes by any serious person's definition. If and when this Israeli government falls we may get an objective commission to discover and report these things from within Israeli officialdom. Alas, we may have to wait quite some time for that. Netanyahu's political skill (and luck) should never be underestimated.
That still doth not a genocide make ... yet. For starters, despite the horrendous toll, most creditable estimates I have seen still report a civilian/military casualty ratio quite a bit lower than in most other wars, even wars conductive by "civilized" European nations over the past century. That fact does not excuse any deliberate targeting of civilians, like the Palestinian woman walking to her chemo appointment. The evidence of Hamas using the civilian population to shield its forces is overwhelming. But IDF soldiers who use that fact to butcher civilians for sport ought to be held to account. One can accept the former fact, and its conclusion that innocents may be killed in legitimate war, without excusing the latter fact, that some in the IDF needlessly and cruelly murder people.
The quote that began this thread is a contention by a Palestinian that any "leadership" that actually wants to lead a people should understand that surrender is sometimes the best option. Instead, we have an organization that is a modern authoritarian kleptocracy fueled by 9th century religious bigotry that sees Gaza as Götterdämmerung, except with some paradise afterward because Islam never ever loses and inch of land to infidels. Palestine, every inch of it, is a waqf from God!
Hamas must go. How do you do that without a lot of destruction given the organization's complete and utter contempt for its own civilian population?
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@kluurs you make a lot of assumptions about what I have and havent read, and what my sources are and aren't. You apparently have bought the anti-Israel narrative hook, line, and sinker, never thinking about how that narrative distorts and manipulates its consumers.
You are taking at face value what certain people say and opine about because of who they are. That isn't how I do research. I look for hard facts, not experts. I learned over many years doing this professionally that giving credence to what certain people say, just because of who those people are, doesn't lead one to the truth.
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Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel yesterday and the Lebanese government have had enough and are going to do something about those Iranian proxies. Good news.
Kluurs
Do scholarly reports viewed on Turkish and Qatari TV count? Arguments from a Professor of an Iranian University who makes frequent appearances? Documentaries they broadcast about the history of the region, often with input from US academics?
I also watch the French 24, a station which I regard highly.Stolen land or not, an eventual opportunistic response or not, 59 hostages are still held in Gaza. And the murderers of 1300 people remain free to kill again.
The near ruin of Gaza and tens of thousands of people killed & injured, mean as much to the faceless Palestinian Authority as Berlin did to Hitler.
What to do? Israel has started target bombing again. Will we watch this soft option for another 17 months?
The Berlin option remains, a house by house search & destroy until the Palestinian Authority surrender unconditionally or (as is more likely) are all dead.
It should have started when the civilised world was aghast and furious at the murderous incursion.
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Is there really any difference these days? Are any of the old PA still about with Hamas rampant and the actual authority in Gaza?
Apologies for being vociferous btw, heartily sick of seeing the prolonged suffering.l day after day.
If we only had a decent UN with claws and teeth to sort evil out.
Instead we have Trump(CF) considering signing America up to our Commonwealth, he likes our King so much. -
My longest post ever...apologies for rambling a bit...
"You apparently have bought the anti-Israel narrative hook, line, and sinker, never thinking about how that narrative distorts and manipulates its consumers."
Yes, it is about narratives.
When growing up, the history of the US narrative was...
- an oppressed people persecuted for their religion come to a new world
- try to negotiate with indigenous people to secure land
- expand by manifest destiny
- fight for freedom
- transform the nation via hard work and ingenuity - a marvel to the world
- become a leader in technology
- win a couple of world wars - almost single handedly
For Israel, the narrative that often emerged in the 1960s...
- an oppressed people persecuted for their religion come to
a new worldthe land of their ancestors - " - try to negotiate with indigenous people to
secureoffer to share land with these people - to live in peace - instead of accepting the hand of friendship, attacked by all the nations that surrounded it
- fight for
freedomvery existence - and survive - an industrious people transform an inhospitable desert via hard work and ingenuity into a thriving nation - a marvel to the world
- become a leader in technology
- win
a couple of worldseveral wars with neighbors hostile to its existence- almost single handedly. - If ever Israel falters in diligence, it may be wiped off the face of the earth - clearly , a goal of its neighbors
- cannot provide autonomy or nationhood to the previous inhabitants of that fake nation (Palestine) because it would destabilize the region and undermine Israel's security
Some on the left have suggested that the US narrative has both factual and emphasis errors. They note that US...
- cheated, subjugated, killed and otherwise oppressed the indigenous people
- that some of its leaders were corrupt, greedy, self serving
- that some of its military actions were bent on conquest and enrichment
- that African Americans and Native Americans really were oppressed by the dominant culture.
Clearly, these are leftists who hate America. Perhaps, the nation needs to Make America Great Again.
As for the narrative regarding Israel, for Jews in America the above narrative is a bit deficient -a bit more difficult for non-Jews to fully appreciate. I'll leave it at that.
What concerns me...
Some of Israel’s strongest supporters may be overzealous in countering criticism, sometimes equating criticism with antisemitism. That is not to say that there aren't antisemitic people out there. That both saddens, angers and depresses me. As a student of the holocaust, I sensitive to this issue.
Student protestors use some of the most counterproductive, stupid, ill-conceived methodologies for providing a counter narrative.
In the 21st century - as in no other, we can live in virtual communities of information where all that flows to us supports our view of the world. To the extent we look at counterpoints to that view, they often come from our trusted source - and these counterpoints are often made by:
- a weak, inarticulate source
- a product of clear factual errors.
- a portion of a narrative taken out of context that supports one's views
- the straw man
This, of course, assumes that individuals desire and actively seek out opposing viewpoints.
I entered this discussion because I disagree with the near reflexive dismissal of students as uninformed and having failed to do research.
While I appreciate the nation of Israel feels a need to control the narrative - just as other governments, I do take issue with the heavy hand that AIPAC and the US government take in trying to address that - e.g. deporting a student with a pro-Palestinian viewpoint - defining anyone supports Palestinians as pro-terrorists.
And - emphasis added – I think it is counterproductive to both Israel and the US government's long-term interests to be so heavy handed - though I could be wrong. If Israel and the US can reach the North Korean level of control, it may work but do any of us want this?
The distrust of Netanyahu and Israel's narrative producers help to make young folks question things... For example, when clearly marked international aid groups or medical staff are killed by Israel - with the vaunted narrative of "we use precise targeting" - is the narrative wrong or the narrative is correct and the attack resulted in the positive impact of the aid organization leaving Palestine.
Hamas’s actions are undeniably reprehensible. However, nations should be accountable for its security forces and policies, Israel must face scrutiny for its heavy-handed tactics which some reasonable people and organizations feel have risen to the level of war crimes.
Emotion – along with narratives, help the creation of narratives and lead us forward. I have friends of friends who lost relatives on October 7. I would not engage in this kind of discussion with these people. Their grief takes precedence. For those with a deep love of and identification with Israel as more than a country or a people – but as an ideal, it is tough to objective. After 9/11, it was tough for most of us to be objective. It is human nature.
Still, I wanted to advocate for the students because I have seen what they have seen – and it isn’t a 5-minute glance at Tik Tok. Over the past year, they’ve seen scores of horror stories. I’ll save you the hours of watching – and just list some of what I’ve seen – as a relatively uninvolved observer...
- video narratives of doctors tortured – and killed
- dead children with head shots,
- israeli soldiers saying that all Palestinians are animals and should be killed, other IDF soldiers bragging of killing – in one case beheading children – a few of which have the header, “most moral army”,
- Israeli leaders speaking in Hebrew of the need to eradicate the Palestinians,
- Israeli leaders sharing maps of their goals of a greater Israel incorporating much of the surrounding nations,
- attacks on schools and hospitals,
- the counterpoint of the precision aiming solely at Hamas – with the visuals of total destruction as far as the eye can see,
- Israeli civilians attacking aid trucks providing food and medical supplies for the Palestinian community,
- Israeli IDF troops destroying medical equipment in hospitals,
- videos of IDF snipers shooting individual women and children – along videos of Israeli troops shooting indiscriminately into neighborhoods,
- video of Netanyahu in 2019 explaining “anyone who wants to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas. This is part of our strategy to divide the Palestinians between those in Gaza and those in Judea and Samaria,
- at least one video I’ve seen of a classroom in Israel with very young appearing to be nurtured to hate and dehumanize Palestinians, discussing the goal of destroying Muslim temples and wanting to kill Muslims,
- oodles of videos of Israeli settlers and IDF – destroying West Bank homes, crops, olive trees, etc.
- videos of examples of Israeli government narrative that are not only in error, but deliberate misrepresentations.
- videos of sailors from the USS Liberty sharing that they strongly believe and cite evidence of a deliberate attack on the ship,
- narratives of Israeli troops shooting a Palestinian, then waiting to kill those who come to their rescue – along with other times attacking clearly marked ambulances,
- Jewish rabbis and Jewish intellectuals condemning Israel’s actions and decrying Israel’s ethnic cleansing,
- few – but still informative videos of the early Zionist movement with quotes and photos of articles sharing how a militant take over of the region would be necessary to establish a Jewish state,
- in one case, an intriguing video where a non-Jewish American woman is explaining to a Hassidic Jew that he is not Jewish for his support for Palestinian rights,
- many videos of soldiers destroying homes, bulldozers tearing up streets, crushing cars, etc.,
- a few videos from the Israelis from the early days of Israel, smiling as they discuss killing Palestinians and children while noting that they shouldn’t probably share this information,
- at least one video narratiung of IDF solider from the 1990s breaking the bones of a Palestinians,
- narrative videos suggesting and providing some evidence of the Hammurabi directive – whereby Israeli troops killed Israelis on 10/7 – preferring to have dead citizens who could be used to justify the “mowing the lawn” rather than having to negotiate for the release of hostages,
- a video of an Israeli official arguing that Israeli soldiers should be permitted to rape Palestinian prisoners,
- a few videos of NGO leaders talking about the run around that Israeli officials engaged in to ensure that the supplies would not reach Palestinian areas,
- parents picking up their dead children, children seeing the mutilated bodies of their parents,
But there’s so much more… If you would like to see any of the above, I’ll share. And yes, I know there is a counternarrative of 10/7 and horrendous images from that. I know - there are videos that show the other side. I've seen many. But let me share one video
Link to video. Still, what's so special about Israel torturing a physician to death compared to other horrors? Well, first off, he was a good man who cared for others. Second, he was targeted. He wasn't walking across some field minding his busines - only to be shot. Some folks in Israell wanted him dead - and there would be no consequences. From the standpoint of moral clarity, he cared for Palestinians, non-humans, people who could harm Israelis. Kill him and you're killing not just one man - but all whose lives he would touch and care for, a strategic decision - like killing children before they can grow and learn to hate. See a bunch of these videos over the year - wonder if they have an impact on the viewer?Controlling or influencing the narrative – works only if one limits the channels for information. Thus, the internet offers an opportunity to personally limit one’s access to a single channel – or the state can try and do that.
Again, in sorting through some of this – I’m doing this for me. Again, I don’t know that Israel is doing anything that other powers haven’t done. The US certainly has no right to criticize if it honestly references its own history.
The scary thought in all of his has to do with morality. And pardon me if I show bias here, but I think a greater than to be expected number of Jews, perhaps more than at least as much as any other people, have a commitment to moral values. AJewish girl I dated in college – saw a 5-dollar bill blowing down the street. I picked it up and handed it to her as she had seen it. She refused it - as she explained, “it is not mine.” Any study of Jewish culture, philosophy and art is a rewarding one – but being human – having human emotions – conflicting desires and personalities – can lead even moral people into a dark corner.
But for at least third time, I find the blanket condemnation of people who criticize the actions of Israel’s leadership, its military, the ambitious settlers, its policies, or even its most prized of truths – that it deserves to be where it is – deserve to be heard and discussed.
I find the effortless dismissal of students or other critics of Israel to intellectually and morally deficient – though I understand and appreciate that hearts usually trump (hate that word) even quite gifted minds.
Additional Background
Years ago, I was reading an essay by the respected Jewish scholar – Isiaah Berlin in which he spoke quite pessimistically about the future of humanity. I was disheartened as I want to be optimistic – perhaps, too many cartoons as a child. As I grow older, I’m more sympathetic to Berlin’s less than hopeful view of the future of humanity.
As I suggested earlier, I grew up admiring Israel, its people and its achievements. With time, I still have much admiration for its people and its achievements – though there is much more nuance and concern. Perhaps a turning point – over 30 years ago, I watched a video with rabbi friend as a poorly dressed Palestinian man cowering by a wall as he was shot by a sniper. In the video he is trying to cover a child of 6 of 7 years old, but the sniper then shot and killed the child. I turned to my friend and said, “that was deliberate.” He grimly responded, “I know.” Perhaps it was out of kindness that the sniper killed the child for he would have been an orphan and lost his father. But the sniper deprived both of them life - a life that was meant for more than to be so easily dismissed. That was when some innocence in my view of Israel was lost.
